Moose call
After enjoying a day off - the Orioles, of course, not me - it's back to work tonight.
They'll get another crack at Mike Mussina, who has been smacked around like a pinata in two starts against them. Mussina has won six of his last seven decisions, the only loss coming in a July 28 game against the Orioles at Yankee Stadium, when he allowed six runs and eight hits in five innings.
At least he made it out of the first, something he couldn't do in a May 20 game against the Orioles, also in the Bronx - though only one of the seven runs off him was earned.
I've got two questions for you: Do you still boo Mussina when he returns to Camden Yards and wish only the worst for him? And is he a future Hall of Famer?
You have to figure that he'll eventually be inducted into the Orioles' Hall of Fame...right? Or will that be a little too awkward?
The second question really intrigues me and brings plenty of debate. The guy's never won 20 games, never won a Cy Young, never won a championship. But it speaks volumes about his consistency that he's won 266 games, against only 151 losses.
Should he be in Cooperstown? And I don't mean as a visitor.
On Saturday, the Orioles get to welcome back another pitcher - Carl Pavano, who never pitched for them, but did get the grand tour and royal treatment when they were courting him before the 2005 season.
What do they say about some of the best deals being the ones that aren't made?
Pavano signed a four-year, $39.95 million contract with the Yankees - and reportedly fired his agent for not getting him $40 million - but he's been sidelined with so many injuries, the next version of the game Operation should include his photo. Shoulder, back, buttocks, elbow and ribs - they've all limited him to 19 appearances with the Yankees, including only two since June 27, 2005. But at least he's won five games for them.
Nice rotation the Yankees have put together. Pavano, Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner...
What, Ed Whitson's too busy these days?
Let me offer a brief summary of opinions:
Will Mike Mussina enter the MLB HOF?
8 said Yes, 7 said No.
I concur with the YES. He may not have a 20 win season, and probably won't this year, but he's come close a number of times. Of all the pitchers who have won 20 games or more in the last 20 years, how many have repeated? How many have won 15+ games in any consistent manner? How many of them have 5 gold gloves? He probably won't get in on the first ballot, but I believe he gets in.
A number of you said it would be contingent upon him winning 20 games in a season, or a championship, or 300 games. Andy Pettitte has won 20 games twice, with a championship. He isn't likely bound for the HOF. Even though the Yanks have not won a championship with Moose, they have made it to the post season every year until this year.
Also, as per the Orioles HOF ballot I lumped that in with the do you MISS Mike Mussina? This gives a general view of who still likes the guy, and who thinks hes a schmuck for leaving.
6 people say they still like him. 6 people say they don't.
I still like him. He's a good guy who found himself in a not very enviable position with the club at the end of the 2000 season. He is a gamer and wanted to win, and the Yankees were willing to pay him the big bucks. I can't say I blame him for leaving for a winning team that offered him money. Not to mention that New York is about as close to his hometown Montoursville as is Baltimore - that probably played some factor into his choice. I hated him at first, I'll admit - but not anymore.
OK, here's your final bunch of stats:
156 GS, 77-41, 23 CG, 10 SO, 3.66 ERA, .252 BAA
132 GS, 71-41, 4 CG, 4 SO, 3.63 ERA, .259 BAA
What are these stats?
The top line is Moose' record at Camden Yards (prior to 8/22)
The bottom line is Moose' record at Yankee Stadium.
The lack of complete games and shutouts at Yankee Stadium might be partially accounted for by the presence of Mariano Rivera, but not to the sum of 19 games. 19 games.... Moose won that number in two different seasons - and only for the Orioles.
I think Moose is in the HOF. He's a borderline case, so not like first ballot... but he's in. The thing I miss most, about him going to the hated enemy and paltry offers from the club yada... Is watching him pitch. The guy is a genius, with mad skilz to boot. Couple fastballs, that famous knuckle curve (rhymes with "buckle" as many hitters' knees do...) Did y'all know he also has a ML-quality knuckleball? To me he's extremely similar to Maddux without 14 straight titles and a ring.
O's HOF? Hmmm. I think that would be too awkward. A shame, that, but there ya go.
He went to the Yankees by choice - he wasn't traded. I don't care about the circumstances leading up to it. He went to our main division rival, and therefore I have no soft spot for him. My loyalty is to the birds, not the financial and business problems of these excessively wealthy entertainers.
Mussina for the Hall of Fame? Absolutely not. No championship, no 20 win season, no Cy Young, no no-hitters, no perfect games, won't win 300.
As the saying goes, it's not the Hall of Very Good. Mussina, who is very good, is not one of the best to ever play the game. No way!
If you're going to induct Mussina, why not put in Jamie Moyer, who is only 25 wins behind him, has two 20-win season and was the ace of the best regular season team in history, the '01 Mariners. And is anyone considering Moyer for the HOF? Of course not. It isn't the Hall of Very Good.
And look at all the very good pitchers from the past who aren't in the Hall:
Jack Morris (three 20 win seasons, won 3 World Series)
Bret Saberhagen (2 Cy Youngs, two 20 win seasons, World Series win, WS MVP)
David Cone (Cy Young, 5 World Series wins, 20 win season, perfect game)
Bert Blyleven (3701 strikeouts, 20 game winner, 2 World Series wins)
If these guys didn't make it, there's no way Mussina should. He's the best pitcher the Orioles have had in decades, but he's not one of the best to play the game. Sorry.
Both Sox and Yanks fans are obnoxious and irritating, but the biggest difference I see between the two is that the Yanks fans actually seem to understand and appreciate baseball. The Sox fans only know how to yell, "Youk" and sing Sweet Caroline. That may have to do with the "band-wagon" factor, but they seem to be fairly ignorant of anything outside of the "Nation."
Getting 20 wins isn't as easy as it used to be, due to the modern usages of starters and bullpens and the 5-man rotation. At some point I think # of 20 win seasons is going to have to be dropped or adjusted as HOF criteria. It probably won't happen as soon as it should, because we all like round numbers. I don't have the stats, anyone feel free to add them for me, but the avergae number of starts, inning pitched and complete games in say Palmer's era vs. Mussina's era have to be very different. That's not Mussina or any of his contemporaries' fault. I would be curious what an equivalent benchmark to 20 wins today should be, 15, 18? One way to look might be to take the percentage of the total starters per year that won 20 back in the '60s and then look for the number of wins per year that produces that same percentage now.
I don't actively boo Mussina (he has the Moose call, like Luke to blame that on anyway) but I'm not pulling for him especially. He was one of my favorites when he was with the O's. I have said in the past I didn't want him to win 20 for the yanks, but I wouldn't mind if he does this year as long as they miss the playoffs, and the wins don't come againt the Birds.
I hope he manages to make the hall if he meets enough benchmarks, though for to me to handle it he would have to go in wearing orange. I agree it's unlikely for him to come play in Baltimore for another year or two, but if he does i think it might help us all forgive him a little more. He could certainly be a that veteran influence for the younger pitchers that we've tried to find in far lesser pitchers like Trachsel.
13-10, 11-15, 12-9, 13-8, 11-10. These are Mussina's win/loss records for 5 of his 19 seasons. Mussina is an accumulator, an above average pitcher with a career average of 17 wins and 9 losses, but not a hall of famer in my opinion.
CRB: Please don't go too far in the comparison to Eddie Murray. Eddie was one of the dominant hitters for at least the first half of his career, not a second tier player as you admit that Mussina is. Eddie may have hung on too long in order to hit his 500th HR, but when he did, he joined very select company, especially when coupled with his 3000+ hits.
As to the Orioles HOF, I would rather see Roch inducted for his blogging.
Honestly, with a resume like that, you need some heroics in the post-season to bump you into the HOF. Moose obviously lacks that, so I would say that he doesn't get in.
He wasn't the best in his position at any given time, he wasn't setting records, or lighting up the highlight reel on a regular basis.
Was he good? Yes.
Should the Hall reward "good?" I don't think so.
mike said:
The Yankee's have a rotation like that and still a winning record?
Well, see that is what 207,108,489.05 payroll can give you!! (I made up the 05 cents part but the rest is true. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=nyy) A winning record and just a winning record.
My belated welcome to MASN, Roch. Dunno if I'll have time to review both your blog and Schmuck's, but yours is at the top of my bookmarks.
I have no hard feelings against Moose at this late point, but I think that one anomalous season late in his career should be viewed as part of downward spiral over three of the five past seasons, as Moose coasts on the Yanquis' massive run production. Even if the HOF voters can forgive the rocky '93 and '96 ERAs, my sense is that Moose is no Seaver, who had enough astounding seasons and of course one big post-season triumph early in his career to make up for later mediocrity (remember the old blog's discussion of highest HOF votes? Seaver was something of a McCain in his time, being able to court the NY press to get this kind of vote, whereas only late in his career has Moose been something other than Johnny Rotten and dared to flash his massive Stanford-trained intellect to the NYT in recent days).
Too bad Ponson isn't on his way to becoming the next David Wells, who I'm sure would leave Fox Sports in a minute to pitch. Where's Kevin Brown these days? I still remember the days when the Yonks thought that Tom Underwood could lead them to the pennant.
Brian,
I actually hate the Sox fans more than the Yanks fans at this point. I see 75% of them as bandwagoners, when at least the Yankees fans were always there. Besides, the Sox fans are a lot more publicly rude, and borderline vicious, at our games.
That being said its like comparing Tragic Illnesses. You don't want, either, and they're both going to kill you....
caprimode said:
I love the smarmy remarks, Roch.
'Yankee Hater Roch' isn't a side we get to see as often as 'Politically Correct Roch,' but I love the glimpses of it that we do see. I know its there, Roch. Embrace it!
August 22, 2008 12:03 PM
Of course it's there, they are the Evil Empire after all right? I'll note that the Red Sux & their troglodyte "nation" hordes are a close second now.
With the Suxs coming then the Spanks right after them, Baltimore is like a modern day Rome with the barbarians invading....
Keep Mussina out of the O's HOF. Bert Blyleven deserves Cooperstown more than Mussina. So Does Milt Pappas whose stats mirror Drysdale's and he even threw a no hitter. Keep Cooperstown for the really great players not the above average who played in New York.
I love the smarmy remarks, Roch.
'Yankee Hater Roch' isn't a side we get to see as often as 'Politically Correct Roch,' but I love the glimpses of it that we do see. I know its there, Roch. Embrace it!
Roch, the Mussina for HOF debate is an interesting one, and I’m sure it will bring out a lot of seething commentary on this post. This year, Mussina has almost returned to form, though he’s obviously not the strikeout pitcher he once was and is certainly more hittable, and his resurgence seems boggling since not long ago everyone was ready to call his career over. One of the best things he’s done this season is allowing just 21 walks in about 153 innings. Consider that Jeremy Guthrie, our best pitcher, has allowed 50 in 177 innings.
I say throw not winning a championship out the window. There are plenty of HOF’ers who’ve never won a championship (or even played in a World Series). Winning a championship with the Yankees, though, probably would’ve made him a lock. And what if he wins 20 games this season? It’s certainly a possibility. That would throw that criterion out the window, and you’d have to hand it to him for doing it at this point in his career.
Do you give Mussina the nod for being sort of the Eddie Murray of pitching? I think in an era of hitting perhaps you do, and it helps Mussina that he doesn’t appear to be part of the performance enhancing drug controversy. He’s also among the best pitchers of his time, perhaps in a second tier behind Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, and Randy Johnson, all of whom statistically among the best ever (though there’s a lot of doubt on Clemens now). I think he gets in, though maybe not on the first or second ballot since he doesn’t meet any of the traditional benchmarks (if he hangs around a few more years and is still productive like this year, he might get 300 wins, though it seems unlikely).
At this point, Mussina gets booed because he wears a Yankee uniform, like the rest of that team. Like many, I was upset when he left, and I pinned the blame more on Angelos than him, but it’s been eight years now. He’s a Yankee and has been for some time. I’ve moved on. Hopefully, since he’s one of the better pitchers in O’s history, the team inducts him into its HOF at some point.
I say keep Mussina out of the O's HOF. I boo him from 3500 miles away.
Was debating the merits of Mussina as a hall of famer just a couple of days ago. Nothing extremely spectacular about his numbers, except for the W-L ration. I think only way he makes it in is if he sticks around for that magic number: 300
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The Yankee's have a rotation like that and still a winning record?
Mussina was my favorite pitcher and when he signed with the Yanks, I'll be honest, it stung. At that time I wished that he not win a World Series with the Yankees and luckily he hasn't. But now I wouldn't boo him. He is a great pitcher, raises his game to a new level in the playoffs, and if he wins 20 this year belongs in the HoF.
I actually hoped the O's would sign him two years ago when his Yankees contract ended--to a two-year deal to serve as a stop-gap in the rotation. He wasn't good last year but has been very solid this year.
Here's the real question: if he made in into the HoF what hat would he wear?
Mike who????
NO on EITHER HOF.... I would be willing to bet he would have a NY on his hat if he made it into the MLB HOF too.
I know potter low balled MM & played around in the salary talks back when... but still, he went to the Spanks??? In potter's defense, & this isn't easy for me to say, maybe we don't know all the details & MM took advantage of dragging talks to jump ship?
Pavano is karma getting the $pank$ back.... Yeah Roch, nice rotation there, it makes the O's look better... perhaps they should call Trachsel to fill it out, he is available....
266-151 eh Roch? Question before I give you my anwser, what was the winning percentage of the teams he was on? Seems to be that Mussina has had few years on bad teams.
Ok here is the math
Not including '91 or '08 the aggreate record of the teams Mussina was on is....1406-1105. His overall teams won at a .560 clip, he has been on seven 95+ win teams. So he won at .638 on teams that win .560. That added to 0 Cy Youngs, 0 20 win season and no rings. I would vote no, then again I am picky, I think the hall should actually mean something.
Oh yea, he has also been playing with some really nice bullpens over the years.
IMHO - Mussina gets 300 wins, he goes to HOF. If he ends with 299 wins [without a ROY, Cy Young, or MVP), he needs to buy a ticket.
Hope the O's hit for the trifecta - smacking him around one more time "like a pinata". That was a very good line Roch.
Wouldn't it be nice for O's to rip off a 8-10-12 win streak?
Kudos on 8/22 to "THE BEST LAST PLACE TEAM IN BASEBALL." It's a lot better than being the worst, which is what everyone, most everyone, predicted. It may not be the best line but it's a start. Hey, a journey of thousand miles begins with the first step. Let's hope this is it. Out.
Actually, Roch, I have wanted to see Mike come back and have a farewell, full circle year back in the orange. I don't think it's going to happen for a huge number of reasons, but I still can hope for it.
Hey Roch,
don't forget Nick Markakis pretty much owns darral rasner.
I definitely think Moose belongs in the HOF. Regardless of him not winning 20 games (which is still a possibility this year), look at his lifetime stats and he's there w/the other greats as far as win/loss percentage, etc. Yeah, secretly, love when the Orioles cream him and I'm a Yankee hater, but I would love to see him win 20 games...and the Yankees finish in last place this year.
Having said all that, I would love to see him go into the HOF as an Oriole!
I say boo Mussina because I'm sure he could have signed for another team besides the Yankees. Seriously. However, I don't wish the worst for him (unless he's pitching against us) because he did play so well for us and there were other factors in him leaving beyond whether he wanted to stay or not.
Also, isn't he getting near the point where he'll have played for the Yanks as long as he played for the O's? In my opinion, that means he can't be considered for the O's Hall of Fame. He isn't an Oriole and hasn't been for a long time.
However, I do think he belongs in the MLB Hall of Fame. Yes, he doesn't have any 20-win seasons. But look at how consistent he's been...10+ wins every single year but his first, and 5 seasons with 18 or 19 wins.
Yes he hasn't had a Cy Young, but he's the golden standard for fielding his position, which is another strong point in his case for Cooperstown.
And the lack of a Championship has more to do with bad timing than a anything else. The best chance he had on the O's was when we got robbed by that certain kid, and then he ended up going to the Yankees right as their dominance started slipping.
Mussina would have won 20 games in 1994 or 1995 (maybe both years) if the strike hadn't occurred. That should be factored in when weighing his career achievements for the HOF.
In my opinion- he is in, even if he doesn't stick around to get 300 wins.
Benedict Arnold!
Yes, it's a patchwork rotation, but they still win games. I hope the Birds leave droppings all over the Moose and send Pavano back to the minors. Here's to a big spanking of the Spankees at Camden Yards!
Wasn't Ed Whitson the best road pitcher in Yankee's history?
i can't even begin to tell you how happy it makes me that new york hasn't won the world series since mooseknuckle arrived.
At the time of Moose's leaving, I could not blame him. The Orioles had traded most of the veterans on the July 31 deadline and were ready to leave him as the only valuable chip on a rebuilding club with no real direction (except down). I hated that he signed with the Yankees, but I could not blame him for leaving the situation that he found himself in. Hall of Fame? In the true sense of history, he has not been the dominant pitcher of his generation, but today's Hall has rewarded raw numbers and longevity so he probably warrants the call.