Category Archive:
Roch Kubatko
Shortstop possibilities
The GM meetings begin next week, which sort of set the table for the winter meetings in Las Vegas in December. And the Orioles' priorities haven't changed.
Starting pitching. More starting pitching. A shortstop.
The club has discussed the three shortstops that we've been kicking around: Orlando Cabrera, Rafael Furcal and Edgar Renteria. Those names have definitely come up. But so have others who might be available in trade.
Keep in mind that the Orioles want a shortstop who can contribute offensively. If you're bored and have some time to kill, maybe you can come up with a few candidates who could be pried away from other teams.
The first person who says "Derek Jeter" will be forced to stay after school and clean the erasers.
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Categories (click for archive)Roch Kubatko |
If we're rebuilding, I'd rather take a chance on a mid-level prospect than sign any of those three to a multi-year deal. And we are rebuilding, right?
The Brewers are willing to part with J.J. Hardy because they've got 2 great young middle infielders in the minors. Hardy and Weeks for Roberts and Tillman. O's get a legit MLB SS with power who is under team control and Weeks who has a ton of talent but hasn't been able to put it all together.
O's lose 1 year of Roberts and a top pitching prospect who could dominate in the NL in another year. O's fans won't want to part with Tillman but you have to give up talent to get talent.
Let the hot stove season begin.
SS - get someone from Japan whose name I can not pronounce.
Roch, How come Ravens Extra on MASN never shows video highlights?
Jeter's a defensive liability, I asked about clint barmes on the rockies a little while ago, they have tulowitzki coming back making barmes expendable. I'm not sure what kind of glove he has, but he's hit well in Colorado. Otherwise, the Rays have a good shortstop prospect, Reid Brignac, and the Brewers have a great sounding one, Alcides Escobar, who's blocked by JJ Hardy (although maybe they'd move Hardy to free up money for CC). Furcal needed all three years of his last contract to play 162 games, so we'd really be rolling the dice there, and Renteria's a weakening hitter who doesn't walk. Cabrera, attitude or not, would be my pick of those three guys.
A one year flyer on Renteria wouldn't be a bad idea. Granted his .698 OPS was bad in 2008, but he's only one year out from the great .332/.390/.470 year he had in 2007 with the Braves.
Furcal is the best free agent option.
We can't afford to move our prospects, so unless we trade Roberts, a trade happening is unlikely. Nobody else known to be available on our roster seems to be bringing interest.
Go after JJ Hardy of the Brewers... he's blocking Alcides Escobar.
My guess is the O's sign for none of the above and we have to settle for Juan Uribe.
My guess is we over pay him for a two year contract and draft for SS as our overall #1 pick.
As a stop-gap what about one Jerry Hairston Jr. as SS? he did beat out Brob all those years but couldn't remain healthy he is a free agent and it would allow for the O's to trade/sign in the upcoming years a more permanent solution...
Just keep in mind we don't have any second baseman reading for the majors (minus Brandon Fahey) so if we trade Roberts it better be for a SS and a second baseman. I'd prefer us sign Roberts to an extension because he is one of the best players on the team. Let's not create another hole in our infield. Also, I gotta believe that Angelos is pretty concerned with getting the attendance back up next year, trading Roberts will not get you any closer to that goal.
There is no way that McPhail changes course and gives up an all-star caliber second baseman and a top 5 prospect to get two middle infielders. We all know that championships are built on pitching and there is no reason to trade any of our top pitching prospects to get guys like Hardy and Weeks. It's just not worth it.
Sign a free agent SS. We need the pitching depth more than we need a SS.
go after jj hardy and add dcab to the trade...maybe his "potential" will excite the brewers!! we can always throw in someone like penn or someone else who has "potential" but never really developed. i would think brewers would want more in return but its a good starting point.
When will Cal be back from his latest trip abroad?
Oh, if Tillman is traded I'm burning anything Orioles that I own. That would be a seriously stupid thing to do.
Roberts and Tillman for Hardy and Weeks? Why don't we trade Guthrie for Jason Kendall while we are at it. Also, Renteria has had more success in the NL(see Marlins, Cardinals & Braves) over his career than he has had in the AL(see Boston & Detroit).
Not Renteria, there's a reason he has had so many zip code changes.... Cabrera doesn't thrill me either. Furcal is speed , singles & little else.
I am waiting for potter to use his Shock & Awe move & $ign Texeira, but I believe in the Great Pumpkin too.
Roch, but, what about a first baseman, such as Mark Teixeira, as one of our top priorities? I know a lot of people think this is going to happen, but if the team isn’t discussing a multi-year, high salaried free agent acquisition as one of its top priorities, that might be a cue that it’s not going to happen.
Some interesting names proposed for shortstop, most of which would help this club. The key is, if it’s a trade, what do we have to give up, and if it’s a free agent, how much do we have to pay and for how long? The best bet, I think, is to go with a low commitment free agent signing; next to that, perhaps pick up a good prospect/first or second year major leaguer in a trade that doesn’t involve giving up any of their own prized young players (I think Hardy would be costly in terms of talent; Barmes might be a reasonable trade target if not going for a good prospect/young player). The club is still in a rebuilding phase and, for the moment, ideally should resist being burdened by expensive, lengthy contracts and dealing away good young players for veterans.
I’d attribute the Philly mayhem to too much alcohol and not enough major sports titles. Seriously, it’s hard to figure beyond drunk fans getting too rowdy. I’ve had my share of drinks over the years, but I’ve never been in the frame of mind where I thought, let’s get a bunch of guys together and tip over a car. I was usually in the mind frame where a pizza with everything on it was a good idea at 2:30 a.m. Perhaps I wasn’t drinking the right stuff in the right amount. Of course, in my college years, there was nothing close to a major championship title happening around these parts to get riled up for.
We could probably get Khalil Green from the Padres for a reasonable price. He hasn't put up the greatest numbers in the past, although he's also played half his games in a very pitcher friendly park...
Oriole's Magic:
RE: Hardy + Weeks = Roberts + Tillman
The funny thing is that most would consider this as a lopsided deal.. by that I mean that there's no way the Brewers would take it.. The rules with trades for legit players is that you have to give up real talent and the Brewers want ML ready starting pitching.. Tillman is still a prospect and while I think he has star potential, this is the type of package it would take for Hardy, Weeks would be a throw-in. If we made it Roberts and Guthrie it might be a deal. I'm not advocating such a move but O's fans have to stop thinking that we can trade Ramon Hernandez and Daniel Cabrera for Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez.
For his career Greene has hit .225 with 35 HRs and a .658 OPS in San Diego vs. hitting .270 with 50 HRs and a .802 OPS on the road. Not Hall of Fame numbers to be sure, but he'll be 29 and he could blossom at Camden Yards.
The truth is we've got a pretty solid lineup and the SS will probably still be batting 8th or 9th no matter who he is...
Anyone who says "Trade Tillman" after watching the pitching this year and knowing that we are rebuilding is totally ridiculous...
Jack Wilson
Ideally we want a young SS who will be there for 5+ years. I like the idea of swapping for an up & coming farm hand.
Here are the FA's available;
Shortstops
Willie Bloomquist (31)
Orlando Cabrera (34) - Type A
Alex Cintron (30)
Alex Cora (33)
Craig Counsell (38)
David Eckstein (34)
Adam Everett (32)
Rafael Furcal (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (33)
Cesar Izturis (29)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Edgar Renteria (33) - Type A
Juan Uribe (30) - Type B
Ramon Vazquez (32)
Omar Vizquel (42) - $5.2MM club option for '09 with a $0.3MM buyout
What about Bill Hall???? He has some pop and would come much cheaper than Hardy... Roberts and Tillman in a trade for Hardy and Weeks. what in the world have you people been drinking???? How bout Hernadez and Dcab for Hardy. I dont think that Hardy is going to come cheap. However, I dont think that O. Cabrera or Furcal would be cheap either... Stay way away from Renteria, no glove, no stick! G. Miclat looked good as far as we saw this past year, just sign a 2 year stop gap!
I know the guy reinvented the Mendoza line, but the fellow who played SS the last 2 months did a great job with the D. That is worth a few runs a game, if you doubt that, just ask the P's what they think.
So why trade the "future" for a SS when they have a good D SS right now? One other thing to consider, this won't go down well with the masses, BUT the O's are going to be at best,3rd or 4th again next year. They should point towards 2010 & the influx of young guys that will be ready then. So why trade for a one year rental at SS or get a guy that is not a long term answer for young P's from the minors? Same goes for trading for the Lowe's & Burnett's out there, or $igning any of those types as FAs.
Hey Rock,
With our new Pacific Rim Scouting initiative, any chance of us scoring the next Kaz Matsui... you know but good? Sorry Kaz.
No trading pitching prospects. Do you want to end up like the yankees? Sure they can hit, but they cant hold a lead. They ignored their starting pitching for a year or two and look what happened, they missed the post season. Trading Tillman is not an option. Only time you can trade a high end prospect is if you already have a quality body in front of him or right behind him. Not the case with our pitching currently.
Tillman...Really?...Hey lets package Wieters and Snyder while we are at it!!!!!!Lets make the same mistakes we have been making the last 20yrs all except for a 2 or 3 yr break in the mid 90's!!! Then lets complain about it when it does not work!!! Come on people!!!!! Hey lets trade John Maine for Kris Benson!!!!! Benson would be great if he can get it all together..thats all he needs..Maine is unproven!!!! There is a great first baseman the astros have now that can help us out!! I think his name is Glen...something or other...... All they want is the unprovens Schilling, Finley and Harnisch...we should do it!!!!!Why pay the money for big name free agent like Eddie Murray...where will that leave us in a couple years? With 3 unprovens like Schilling, Harnisch and Finley..and an aging first baseman named eddie Murray..... What kind of rotation would that be going forward......a couple rookies...Mike Mussina...Ben Mcdonald....Pete Harnisch and Curt Schilling...that doesnt sound too promising!!!We have money to spend!!!! Yes free agency is a gamble...but sometimes even if you lose that gamble those names can still fill seats..... We need to spend it!!!! Question? who has more people in the seats...the losing Yankees with big under preforming names....or the losing tightwad Orioles. Big money players that go to free agency are the better of the 2 evils, at least we dont lose our prospects in free agency signings!! The only question I have Roch is.......If we sign a Burnette or Teixeira...do we lose our first round pick.....How does that work?
You guys would love Khalil Greene, the guy is a magician at SS, and if he escapes Petco Park, the guy will be a star!
I see him play everyday, and the kid can play.
Roch, I should get some kind of kick-back for making this board blow up..
Sorry for the Tillman suggestion folks, but the greater point is that
we're not willing to give anything up that's worth more than a bag of balls.. Clint Barmes is a decent suggestion for a SS replacement but I don't know how well we match up with Colorado's needs. They need a closer - you think they want Rocky Cherry?
We can try to sign Furcal and come up short to a better team or we land a re-tread that sucks.. Deivi Cruz where are you?
If only the O's had managed to lose 5 more games last year we could be in the running for USC SS Grant Green in June's amateur draft. Then it would make sense to sign a short-term solution.
Kahlil Greene for Lou Montanez.
I'd try prying away a young shortstop like Cedeno (Cubs), Lillibridge (Braves), Wood (Angels) or Donald (Phillies). We have positional guys as well as Sherrill, Walker and D-Cab that we could move for one.
Jerry Hairston Jr
I couldn't resist, but he played very well for the Reds this year when he was healthy. He might be gotten cheap.
Jerry Hairston, JR. makes sense at SS. Knows us, knows and likes BRob, hit well at CIN last season. Has 2-3 years left, at least, and won't cost us anything. But I did not realize he was a real SS. How is his defense? Hall is the type of gamble I might take if the price was not too high. He is young.
But ...
Let's remember the priorities:
1. FA starting pitcher # 1
2. FA starting pitcher # 2
3. Teix.
4. Starting pitcher (in trade) # 3
5. SS upgrade
6. Back-up catcher for Weiters
I advocate signing 3 big FA's this year, two of the top 5 pitchers and Teix. Let the payroll increase by $50mm per year. We can afford it. If we do it, we will resign BRob and Nick with little trouble, and be back into respectability for 2009 and contention for 2010. ANd still far below the payroll of the Sox and Yankees and nowhere near the luxury tax zone.
Why wait? We don't lose draft picks because we sucked so bad last year, they don't penalize us. The FA's won't block other youth who are ready or might be within 2-3 years. It is just a matter of the will to get it done.
we need to replace Cabrerra (known unreliable now) Loewen (gone), Bedard (gone and never replaced). Let's get to it for cryin' out loud.
But it sure sounds slow and tentative again from our front office. I was hoping for a blitzkreig move the day the market opened.
Why not sign David Eckstein for a couple of years? He could provide some leadership for the young guys, he's the type of player the O's need (hustles, good in the clubhouse)and wouldn't cost much money or draft picks.
Mike,
Any pick in the top 12, I think, is protected so the O's would not lose their #1 pick next year. But, to me, to spend on a long term deal when you are at least 2 years away is not spending wisely right now. While we wait for the pitching to develop and get a few more prospects via trades, sign some stop gaps to fill the holes so that the rotation and SS aren't as ugly as last year. We're a last place team with or w/o a big signing or 2 next year. Why waste that money until it produces wins that mean something? True, Tex will be gone but there will be others for the taking if they are willing to ante up the bucks when the time comes to dive in.
How about Liz for Joaquin Arias from Texas? Arias hits for average, is good defensively and has no place to play other than the bench for the Rangers.
Rebuilding???? For the last decade? Im sooooo sick of being an O's fan. We have become just like the Pirates or Royals. We basically have no hope even before opening day.
Name the last big time free agent we signed... Albert Belle and that was over 10 years ago. With names like CC, Rodriguez, Tex, Sheets, Manny do any of us even think we are going to sign ANY of them. I'm just sick of the losing and see no end in sight!!!
We would not lose our first rounder in signing a Type-A free agent. It's protected because it's in the top half of the first round. We would lose our 2nd rounder (and 3rd rounder if we signed two of them). Small price to pay in terms of draft pick compensation if you ask me.
Tillman *can't* be traded. If you have to choose between poor pitching and good infielders or good pitching and poor infielders, I'll take the pitching every single time. I think that Hardy could be had cheaper than people think, as the Brewers need to unblock Escobar and free up some salary for Sabathia and/or Sheets. They can keep Weeks. He's an OF waiting to happen, and we're pretty ok in that department.
Debbie Downer, here. I don't understand why my fellow fans believe that we will automatically sign the top two pitching free agents! Sure, we can throw money at them, but we have attempted to overpay for FAs before and they just aren't interested in playing for a franchise that has been terrible as of late. McPhail is a big change, and that probably matters to some, but I don't think it means we have instant respectability. Yea, we'll still stink for a bit, but such is life when you've run a franchise like this one has been run. I don't think that we are at Pirates or Royals-levels, thanks to McPhail. He has a plan and PA's ear.
I think we could be a darkhorse with have a shot at Tex with the hometown connection, but FA pitching has been turning away for us for years. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying that it seems unrealistic to me.
I like the Greene idea. Hitting 8th or 9th I can see him around .250 with 20 HR. He is more suited to our type of need. SD needs more of a fast SS that they can play small ball with. Power is wasted in SD.
Someone said not signing Teixeira is better since the O's won't be in contention for 2 years? That does not make sense to me. Why sign 2 starting pitchers then? The point is to work towards making a contender.
The O's have to build the team the right way. In the AL East it means you need pitching and good hitting. Toronto had the pitching. NY had the hitting. Neither made the playoffs. TB and Boston have both so they made the playoffs.
Trading TIllman is the worst idea I've ever heard here.
Consider that we've been building our pitching depth because of our early-mid round picks, Rounds 2-6. Without those rounds we wouldn't have Penn, Olson, Erbe, Arrieta, etc. We've been pretty solid at grabbing prospects that fall and still signing them. That's what we would be giving up if we signed Burnett or Texeira.
I agree with a lot of people here that Clint Barmes is a very real possibility at shortstop. However, I think another strong and cost-effective possibility might be free agent Adam Everett. The guy has always been a slick fielder. No, he's not a great hitter but he is capable of 10 homers and 50 RBIs while hitting .240 or so. He's a stopgap but that's what the club needs after the merry-go-round at shortstop this season. If not one of these two guys, then just re-sign Castro. It makes no sense to spend any significant money on a shortstop or first baseman. The only position investing some larger dollars on for 2009 is starting pitching. And I still think the club should seriously consider dealing Aubrey Huff from some more prospects. I don't think his value will ever be higher.
I'd be OK with signing Adam Everett for the short term. Doesn't cost us much, gives us a solid defender and buys us some time to draft and develop our own SS for the future (college player). Then go out and spend the big dollars for AJ Burnett (there's your local tie!) and perhaps Kyle Loshe. Not you've settled the SS position for now, and have 3 solid starting pitchers. That then allows for Liz & Olson to battle for back end positions. Scour the waiver wire. Maybe you hit on another Guthrie type signing. Maybe not! Focus on the 2009 draft. And forget about TEX! We do not need to become the East's version of the Texas Rangers!!
So are you telling us that Tim Beckham won't be the player-to-be-named in the Chad Bradford trade?
I wonder if there's any chance the Brewers part with Escobar, their AA shortstop. That guy is going to be a star. Either or he or Hardy has to be traded eventually...
why not give Blake Davis a shot at the job.
Well said TX O's fan...
Trade someone like Huff for players that include a topnotch shortstop prospect. If you sign somebody, make it a cheap free agent who can field the position and doesn't cost a draft choice. Next year's W-L record won't be that good, regardless.
i actually agree with the guy who said lou mantanez for khalil greene makes alot of sense... Greene is a ss who has some power in his bat an excellent fielder and then we could give nolan reimold a lf position full time... another name i do like is rafeal furcal he has alot of speed and a has a good glove... blake davis is a very interesting option!!!!