The Wieters debate
As the Arizona Fall League nears the end of its schedule, with the championship being decided this weekend, catcher Matt Wieters is batting .290 with four doubles, one triple, one homer, 12 RBIs and 10 runs scored in 19 games.
Pretty soon, I'll be able to remove the tracker from underneath his car.
Wieters' average has dipped since his hot start, but he's still hit safely in nine of his last 10 games (though he's 10-for-40 with 10 strikeouts).
David Stockstill, the Orioles' director of player development, spent last week in Arizona. He stopped short of saying that Wieters is tired, but noted that the kid "has played a lot of baseball this year, more than he's ever played."
"We wanted him to catch two day a week and DH one or two games a week and be in a pro atmosphere a little bit longer this year," Stockstill said. "It's not a situation where we were trying to catch him every day. It's been a long season and he's done extremely well. But last week when I was out there, they weren't throwing him much to hit. The team he's on is not the best in the league and they were being very selective with how they were going to pitch him. The same thing happened in Frederick toward the end when we moved him up, and that was one of the keys to moving him up, to keep challenging him."
I put Stockstill on the spot, asking if he thought Wieters was ready to be the starting catcher on Opening Day. I realize the decision doesn't rest with him, but I was interested in his opinion. Stockstill was careful with his answer, but noted that spending a little more time in the minors would allow Wieters to be "the best possible catcher down the road, and that's what you want."
"You don't want to stunt his development, but at the same time, he's a very special player, a very special person," Stockstill said. "I think he can do anything you ask him to do."
Asked what facets of Wieters' game need improvement, Stockstill said: "Receiving the ball, he does very well, but there are still some minor things he needs to make adjustments on. And there are definitely things he can learn calling a game. This is the first year he's really called pitches. In college and high school, they call the games for you. Not that he can't do it. He does a good job of it. But it's a very new situation and there's something for him to learn every day. The more he's exposed to, the more he learns and the better he is at the next level.
"And with hitting, I was talking about teams pitching around him and being pitched tougher, and that's part of what he has to go through - learning not to swing at pitchers' pitches and learning to recognize when they're not going to give you anything to hit. As a major league player, when you hit well, they're going to start pitching around you sometimes. He's got to be ready to handle it. That's part of the learning process."
I won't go so far as to say the organization is divided on whether Wieters should be in Baltimore or Triple-A Norfolk in April, but the vote isn't unanimous. Perhaps everyone will be on the same side as spring training plays out. I know at least one influential member of the organization endorses having Wieters on the 25-man roster on Opening Day.
In your opinion, is he ready to make the jump from Double-A, or should the Orioles proceed more slowly? Should they throw him in the deep end of the Camden Yards pool or let him first stick his toe in the International League waters?
bring him on,we're ready for him,we're tired out chasing those passed balls of Hernandez
Well, if Ramon is traded, I think it solidifies the fact that Wieters is on the 25 man roster and will start opening day. I don't think it is going to stunt his growth at all, really. He has caught Tillman, Bergesen, Matusz and Arrieta (the important minor league arms) so I think he needs to get the experience with the rest of the staff, particularly the bullpen, because I don't see many of those guys leaving any time soon.
Sure, he might not get pitched to, but I think pitchers will try and challenge him so they can say they out-smarted the past year's ML Player of the Year. So, I endorse Wieters being moved onto the 25-man. The sky is the limit with this kid.
If Ramon doesn't get traded, I think they will pretty equally share playing time so as to relieve the pressure on Wieters a bit, plus Ramon could teach him a few positive things like Jay Payton did with Adam Jones this past year...such as calling pitches and studying hitters. As long as it doesn't involve any form of defense, I think it could be a good match.
Trade Hernandez
Sign Greg Zaun or someone like him
Start Wieters in AAA and bring him up in late May or June if the O's are still playing competitive baseball. Have him serve as the back up for a month or two and let him get accustomed to the Major Leagues.
This gives you an option as well for DH.
Haven't we rushed enough guys to the Majors in the past 11 seasons?
Let the kid develop and he'll be here when the time is right.
I think Matt should play at AAA for a couple months.
Just kidding. Let Wieters take a few months off and let his play decide if he is ML ready or not. Also be nice to get a good defensive back up that can help mentor the kid. My original idea was Jason LaRue. But since he re-signed how about a guy like Ausmus?
Roch- What does it really matter? They could trade him for nothing for all it matters in the long run. I just realized, if the O's are not willing to shell out the money it would take to get Texiera, that means we will never have any players of that caliber. Those players cost money. Lets face it, we are not gonna have 9 position players come up through and keep them. But... so what? We would not be able to sign them long-term either.
Longoria was locked up for 10 years a week into his career. That is Tampa Bay! Do they have more money than the O's? NO. We can not lock up Markakis. Couldn't with Moose, Bedard, Ryan, Roberts, need I go on? This truly is the Worst organization in pro-sports. With or without McPhail. I just realized this when I saw that Burnett is looking for 5 years and 80 million. He WILL get it. Not from the O's. They will not spend the money needed to compete. We are in the AL East. Spend or lock up your players and spend a little bit. Lets say Markakis turns into a Texiera...he is gone. Jones? Gone. Arietta? Gone. Tillman? Gone. And on down the line.
He should be starting opening day,
The kid is the future, start him at AAA and see what he can do. Didn't the Rays start some guys in AAA to start the year just to save a year of free agency? The expectations are going to be high enough, build his confidence and then let him see what he can do, he has only been calling pitches for one year.
I would like to see him start the year in AAA - this gives us one more year for him to progress as a player. If we are able to actually field a competitive club - it will be in a few years - probably not this year and I would rather have him with us then than in April or May
Don't trade Ramon, Wieters needs some time in AAA, most likely until early June. I expect big things out of Ramon this year, because this is the last year of his contract. I think he will be motivated.
So Wieters comes up in June, and platoons with Ramon. Ramon bat can be used as a DH. Then we trade him to a contending team, catchers are always getting hurt so there is a need.
If he starts the year at Norfolk and then comes up to B-more, he will get to know the pitchers that he will be catching at the end of the summer. Doesn't the Norfolk staff eventually end up at B-more anyway?
Put Wieters at AAA and let his play decide when he comes up.
I think Wieters should be a midseason callup this year if at all. Not that Wieters can't handle it if he came out of Spring on the 25 man, but, one of the things the Orioles need to continue changing is the philosophy of reward and performance. In the old days, the Orioles left these decisions to the performance of the player, and didn't hand it over because he is ordained the Golden Boy. The flipside of that might be Matt Riley whose sense of entitlement never put him in a situation to really work hard for his spot. Wieters is a very special case where every other player in the org will be watching him and one could make the case that his uniqueness makes him the exception, but, I think it's even more reason to send a signal. Every other player will say to themself, "Damn, if they are going to ask HIM to work for his spot on the ML team, then I better work too!"
Also there's the service time argument. Right now we are going through having to sign Markakis now to an extenson but it's been accelerated with him by a year because he came out of Spring on the team. There's a big difference between starting a player in April vs. June as far as service clock. That being said, if a player earns a spot with his play, he deserves to play and the service clock be damned. Period.
Honestly, I think you handle the Wieters situation just the way the O's did with Markakis. Coming into that spring training, the O's were basically planning on sending Nick to the minors, likely AAA if I recall - but he forced their hand with how well he played. After a slow start in the majors, he managed to pick it up and gain the experience... and the results showed. I think you take the same approach with Wieters. If he forces your hand in the spring, then you have him with the team on Opening Day. If he's not quite there, then you start someone else and put him in AAA - have a stopgap for Wieters and go with the approach that the Rays did with Evan Longoria, who eventually came up about a month into the season. Just my thoughts Roch...
Rob - As far as I'm aware the only player that the Rays started at AAA at the beginning the year was Longoria... and if their intention was to save a year on him they certainly screwed that up by signing him into a long term deal that took him past arbitration and on into free agency!
I see Matt Weiters as being a case that should be treated very similar to Adam Jones. His talent has shown that he doesn't need to be placed in any specific mold. If it were my call (unless he gave me reason to think different in spring training) I'd plan to make him the starter for 2009 and pair him with a solid back-up who will catch at least twice a week in the beginning to take some of the pressure off.
Trade Hernandez. Wieters will bring extra people to the Park. Sign him to an extension 10 HOURS into his major league career. And get the deals with Markakis, Jones, Roberts done too.
I believe it's best to take him slowly and let him start at Norfolk. If he does as well there as he has everywhere else then bring him up in May. Besides that keeps him an extra year before any possible free agency, I believe.
I have to agree with Ryan. I have made alot of excuses for the orioles over the past 10 years, about how I agree with them that they shouldn't pay x amount for said player, but good players are not going to get any cheaper. So maybe it's time to make a statement, and not the one we have made over the last 10 years. I am tired of more of the same and can't stand the taste of the kool aid that they keep dumping down my throat.
I would like to see some good pitchers be here for his arrival. If they can't get any good pitching in here, they might as well leave him in AAA with the 3 pitchers they just added to the 40-man roster. Let them dominate again next year for however long and bring them all up together to take over for the parent club at the same time.
He needs to start from Day 1. I don't understand why its even a question.
Roch, often one of these deals like the Dempster one is the kind that gets the market going. Of course, it’s getting close to the deal making time anyway just by the calendar. Dempster had one great season as a starter and is now making $13 million per year for four years—confirmation that the market is still crazy (no surprise, and he might’ve gotten more on the open market).
As for player salaries and the current economy, the two can’t have any bearing on one another. As insane as it might be, baseball is about as much of a free market as any one system can be as far as salaries go. Maybe next year, once there are any serious effects upon the sport, things could be different (I imagine they have to played out first in terms of lost ticket sales and other revenue). It could be different this time, but I’m not sure past economic downturns (other than perhaps the Great Depression) necessarily hit attendance hard. And you have to figure attendance will not suffer in the new stadiums for both New York teams and the always filled Wrigley and Fenway. Perhaps minor league clubs offering lower ticket prices will get a boost—who can say?
For the sake of curiosity, I looked back to late 1995 and 1996, when the O’s made a definite free agent splurge, just to see when they signed players. It looks like the big ones—Alomar, Myers, McDowell, Surhoff, Key, Bordick—weren’t done until December. That’s been a long time ago and circumstances have changed, but I guess that’s something to take heart in if you’re hoping for some big spending.
Let him see some AAA pitching then bring him up.If they are smart they will give him a chance for ROY.
Let him start the season with the big league club. Calling games is so overrated. If your pitchers can throw strikes then you called a good game.
Does the guy who called the Blue Jays games get All-Star consideration?
I honestly want them to pull an Evan Longoria with him for contractual reasons.. Start him in AAA for a couple of weeks and then pull him up. I just fear that in doing so (and starting Ramon/Guillermo/Paul Bako/Jeff Tackett) at catcher sort of symbolizes us throwing in the towel for 2009 on April 6. Its a tough call. You know fans want Wieters, and with the usual suspects behind the plate he probably is your most legit option.
Roch, who do you see as the future long-standing Orioles MVP? Markakis, Wieters, or AJ? Are you hoping to throw Tillman & Matusz in the mix? Either way, it looks like we are finally going to have depth come 2010. Let's hope we have a real first baseman by then, no disrespect to Aubrey Huff.
With all we've seen and heard about this kid's bat, it doesn't matter who else is on the roster in Baltimore; this kid needs to be there. If you can zip through minor league layers and dominate, you are ready. There's nothing more for him to learn in the minors that he can't learn in Baltimore. He's obviously a quick study and a special player. Let's see what he's got. He can probably hit more opposite field HRs than our catchers hit all last year. I hope they have Dempsey working with catchers in ST.
He should be in Norfolk* to start the season.
A) We have an expensive catcher that we have no hope of moving
B) Boras client. So wasting his valuable arbitration clock on next years 100 loss season is pointless.
C) There is something to learn hitting off AAA pitching.
*I realize 95% of the brethren are in fantasy land and my opinion will be called stupid.
Let him excel in the minors as long as possible. That way, no matter how the big club does in 2009, fans still have a reason to be optimistic. If you start him on Opening Day and he flops (or gets hurt), it's going to be a LOOOONG season...
Roch - After reading the comments I think I have come up with an overall plan for the O's this winter:
1. Sign Tex for $20-$25 million per.
2. Sign Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis, Adam Jones and Wieters to long-term contracts.
3. Sign Burnett for $16-$18 million per.
4. Find some team willing to trade a stud SS with power for Ramon Hernandez and a bucket of balls.
5. Then we should probably lock the stud SS up with a long-term deal.
6. Put "Timonium" on the away jerseys.
And by the way, don't raise ticket prices.
I don't see why Andy just doesn't get started. Seems easy enough. (/sarcasm)
Sometimes I think Oriole fans have the exact team they deserve.
By the way, the ONLY way they should give Texiera $20+ million is if every fifth day he takes the hill and gives us 7, with an under-4 ERA.
From everything you hear and read, Wieters is the best minor league catcher in the country. I hope 'they' are corect. I remember hearing from 'them' about how good Matt Riley was going to be. Remember him?
Joe Mauer - arguably the best catcher in baseball today, had 276 at bats in Double-A before essentially graduating to the big leagues with ease. I think that's a decent parallel to look at, and I think Wieters is talented enough to succeed the same way Mauer did.
Couple points: There is no guarantee that Ramon, at his age, after two straight seasons of dogging it, is either motivated or physically able to have a "career year", unless it's for career lows in all categories. He has made his money, and he appears not to care about his reputation. And you know the old saying, "use it or lose it." He hasn't used his skills. He may no longer be able to. Second, Joe Mauer and Matt Wieters: different guys, different teams, different "plans," differing everything. No cookie-cutter approach will work, only the (forgive the Bush-speak) "situation on the ground."
Third: Markakis is our hugest priority, and that ship already may have sailed. As I've said before, his relationship with DT and his staff probably are his biggest reason to stay here. Ask yourself: If you were a budding ML star, would you commit to a vessel like the O's? Not if you wanted to win, as all the best players do.