About yesterday...
If I'm the manager, I leave Brad Bergesen in yesterday's game and see how he does against the first batter he faces in the ninth inning.
And I probably would have been wrong, but I'm doing it. He's the best I've got.
Without actually sitting in the dugout and receiving feedback from my coaches and starter, it's easy to convince myself that 103 pitches wasn't extreme and Bergesen had a few more left in his right arm. It's the safe call. Don't put the ball in somebody else's hand when Bergesen has taken such good care of it.
But Bergesen didn't campaign to stay in the game. It didn't appear that he put up much of a fight. Maybe he was just being respectful. Maybe he was toast. Trembley's critics are certain that it's the former because, well, they just know. Meanwhile, we don't know what Trembley and pitching coach Rick Kranitz saw from the bench.
Bergesen has pitched into the seventh inning in seven of his last eight starts. He was working on slightly short rest if you consider that it was a day game. OK, we're talking about 5 ½ hours. Hence, the word "slightly."
The Orioles have to protect their investment. We still have three months to go. Bergesen's season isn't going to end when the minor leaguers are shutting down. And Trembley has every reason to expect Jim Johnson to hold a four-run lead, and for George Sherrill to keep the margin at two.
If Johnson strikes out the side, are we even having this discussion?
Because Sherrill was pushed to the brink the previous night, I would have kept Johnson in the game after Kevin Youkilis' home run. The bases were empty. The Orioles were still ahead. See if he can steady himself. But that's a separate debate.
I understand why you want to give Johnson a clean inning, rather than sending out Bergesen to start the ninth and then yanking him at the first sign of trouble. But again, if it's me, I let the rookie have the ball - knowing deep in my heart that it's not the best thing for him, but it's the easiest move for me to make.
I guess if you're Trembley, you're not looking for the easy way out.
Meanwhile, Jason Bay became the fifth Red Sox player to strike out five times in a game, joining Cecil Cooper - who holds the club record with six (June 14, 1974), George Scott (twice), Phil Plantier and Ray Jarvis.
Also, the Orioles have 18 outfield assists, tying Tampa Bay for the league lead. And Felix Pie is batting .438 during a five game hitting streak.
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Categories (click for archive)Roch Kubatko | Roch Kubatko Orioles |
Roch-
This makes me very happy that I have only one boss who questions and second guesses my work. But, as DT has said, it's part of his job to be criticized. I was at the game, and when JJ came in, I said to my son, "OK- it's over. We're good." I said the same thing 12 minutes later when Sherrill came in. 99% of the time, those moves work without notice and we're only talking about Bergy being a stud this morning.
Did I just say I was happy to have my boss? More coffee. I need more coffee.
The thing is, Bergesen absolutely dominated the red sox. He struck out Jason Bay five times! After meeting with him in the eighth inning, it took Brad one pitch to finish the eighth inning. Why not let him go for the complete game and try? He earned it in my opinion? He is the best that we have right now and why not put your confidence behind him? Your bullpen has to warm up, get fresh and keep the momentum going. As yesterday showed, your bullpen is bound to blow it, even with the amazing stats it had going into yesterday. Even if JJ gets the last three, it is still an issue. Dave Trembley has let Jeremy Guthrie stay out there for a complete game loss, why not let the kid pitch? It wouldnt be an issue at all if he put Bergesen out there to start the ninth and regardless if he struggles,at the least could have given up a solo shot and still be up by three. Just an opinion from a fan, but I did not like it when Bergesen didnt come back out.
hey Roch,
I would have liked to have seen Bergesen go out for the last inning, too, but can you fault a guy for bringing in his two best relievers to finish out a game? (I'm not saying you are, its a rhetorical question). A four run lead should be safe when you have JJ and Sherrill there.
The Red Sox had to beat our two best guys and they did. The only thing I'm upset about is Bergesen not getting the win. The good thing is that Bergesen showed that he can shut down the very potent Boston attack.
Now if only the rest of our starters could pitch like that...
Roch I respect your opinion and I can go either way but I'm not going to second guess Trembley I think he is doing a great job and I'm concerned that all the naysayers are going to get him run out of town. I like the coaching staff and I don't think you can go the next step in the ladder without continuity. If Trembley goes then we have to start all over again. In the grand scheme of things it was one game followed by a game that we probably shouldn't have won to begin with. Johnson and Sherrill's resume says that they should have finished the game out. They are to good to have a four run lead and not get the job done. That is what they are here for and they didn't do it. I get tired of hearing people blame coaches for jobs that the players are suppose to do, that is what they get paid for. To the best of my knowledge Bergesen has gone back out into the ninth on two occasions, obviously, most recently he was successful in closing the door and getting the complete game but the first time he tried it on June 5th, I believe it was the night Wieters was called up against the Tigers, b/c I was there, he came back out in the ninth and immediately gave up two line drive hits and they ended up having to immediately go to the bullpen. Damn if you do damn if you don't. He doesn't get pulled and gets into trouble and everyone is asking why he left him in when johnson hasn't pitched in a couple of days. You can't win. One the biggest ways that you critique the manager is whether the players play for them or not and this team doesn't quit and I like that and I think that is the best reflection of Trembley; I'm tired of hearing the naysayers.
I agree Bergy should have been trotted out in the 9th. Boston got a metal boost just with him coming out of the game. Johnson's lack of control was surprising he couldn't get anything over so he served up a fat one to Youk. Still what I don't get is not bringing Baez in to face Baldelli.
Either way it was a 4 run lead the bullpen didnot do it's job. Especially jj!! It was his lead to keep!! But, I feel that going to the bullpen played into the red sox hands. They saw a chance. They had sherrill on the ropes the night before! Our bullpen isnot noted to be great! Beregesen didnot labor at any point. He is a rookie he isnot going to disagree with his manager!!!
Gary-
Good post, but as the Shmuckster over at the sun website points out, its not going to be the naysayers that run him out of town. It'll be his inability to get fundamental mental errors eliminated from this team. He wrote a good article, the good thing he points out is that its not an organizational problem, and the youngsters aren't the ones guilty, its the vets. I also agree that pulling Bergy was the right call. JJ and Sherrill are there when our pitchers get a little gassed. Brining in a fresh arm that throws in the mid 90s with sink is never a bad thing. It just didn't work out for us today. We made strides in this series I think. We battled the sox and didn't give them an inch. Now they know we are a much tougher team to take out then they previously had believed.
Bottom of the 8th, Trembley to Bergesen: "I need one more inning out of you."
That's all that needed to be said. It scares me that Trembley is content with 8 innings and 1 ER out of his starting pitcher. The goal should always be 9 and a win. If you expect anything less than a win, that's what you'll get.
In this case, I think Trembley made the right call. It just didn't work out. As you said, had Johnson gone 1, 2, 3, there would be no discussion today.
George Sherrill, for all the good he has done, needs to be traded. He puts too many runners on and tries to nibble at the strike zone. He would be a GREAT lefty specialist. He is only a decent closer who likes to keep the fans on the edge of their seats.
That game was bogus!!! It was over. Jason Varitek struck out. Everyone knew it except for the damn umps. They were terrible all series. And i know I'm not Trembly but i would have pinch hit Wieters and Salazar in the bottom of the 10th. Thats a bit more fire power than who they put in there. And speaking of Pie, if he continues to improve and the O's decide to keep him, could you see him eventually taking over left field and them converting Reimold into a first baseman?
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Reimold going to first would be a move made way down the road, if it ever happens. Pie certainly could force the issue, but right now, the Orioles like Markakis/Jones/Reimold. Plenty of scouts would agree. They seem to be set. - Roch
Roch,
This may be a stupid question,but,when counting the balls and strikes that a pitcher has thrown during the game is a ball put into play a strike,or a ball regardless of where it is in the strike zone?
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A ball put into play is a strike. - Roch
The most overrated job a manager has is in-game decision making. Should he pinch hit player A or player B or leave in player C? Should he bring in pitcher X or pitcher Y or leave in pitcher Z? More often than not it won't make a difference, and when it does it usually evens out over the long haul.
If people want to complain about Trembley's managing, they should focus on the fact that (according to Baseball Prospectus) last year the Orioles baserunning cost them 17 runs, worst in the majors (and it cost them roughly 2 wins), and so far this year their baserunning has already cost them just over 17 runs, again worst in the majors (and it has cost them roughly 1 win). Bad baserunning does seem to be a managerial priority for Trembley.
But I don't think even that necessarily makes Trembley a BAD manager. I think more than anything else, a manager's most pressing tasks are to make sure that players are informed of what's going on, comfortable with the team, and ready to play (not to mention keeping a good relation with the media); and it appears that Trembley does a good job with that.
Had Johnson closed out the game yesterday nobody would be talking about this today. Had the O's lost with Bergeson starting the 9th, just as many people would be complaining about the decision. The litmus test for an in-game managerial decision should be, "regardless of the eventual outcome, was it an OBVIOUS mistake at the time the decision was made." There's NO WAY the decision to bring in Johnson with a 4-run lead in the top of the 9th passes that test.
Roch; I was at the game yesterday, and I can't say I was surprised when Bergesen didn't come out after 8-it's standard practice these days to let your bullpen pitch the ninth, (I don't agree with it, but it's not just Trembley), and it just demonstartes the difference between the Red Sox and the Orioles at their relative stages of development; we Orioles fans think of Jim Johnson & George Sherril as "shut-down relievers". The Red Sox, a team of seasoned professionals, see them as "batting practice pitchers".
Roch:
I was watching the pitch track from my computer and Bergy was still getting the ball to sink in the strike zone through the 8th inning. Trembley has said in the past with Brad - once he starts elevating, is when he's getting gassed. His arm would be opening up.
His ball still had break to it. His only problem with the 8th inning was Roberts' fielding error. Trembley should have not been shaken up for any reason as Bergy was dominating the Red Sox. Alas, he changed the momentum of the game by giving up on the pitcher and sticking to the pitch count rather than feeling the game out. This is how the Orioles lost their momentum to the Red Sox on that Mother's Day Massacre game with Guthrie under Perlozzo.
I totally agree with your idea. Let him go out for the 9th. If he can't get the first batter out, have someone ready in the pen. Give your player and team that chance. They like playing behind Brad.
It's so easy to second guess DT on this, but I just don't see how he can be criticized for going to guys who had been lights out and with a four-run lead. They just didn't do their jobs. That's not DT's fault. Easy to say now that Bergey would have closed it out in the 9th. No way to know. I was "watching" the game on Gamecast yesterday. They have a place where they predict the winner of the game on a pitch-by-pitch basis, purportedly based on historical factors. It was at 98% in favor of the O's when the 9th started, and, even when Baldelli was up, it only had dropped to something like 86%. That just goes to show how unlikely yesterday's result was. But it happens; just look at the night before. I think DT can be criticized for certain things--like the team's overall preparation and how they apply themselves on the field for example--but I don't think yesterday's decision was one of them.
Roch I agree with you totally!
Bergy should have started the 9th.
Another example of a game lost due to DT inability to manager a pitching staff. That is the 9th game this year I have counted that was lost due to pitching decisions.
As with Uehara, Mr. "Electricity" Andrew really flopped with the Koji signing. I guess when you sign an aging veteran who was in the minors most of last year, you have to expect the signing to be a failure. With torn elbow tendons, you can figure he is finished for the year. Andrew is 0-3 with trying to catch lightning in a bottle this year with the cubs rejects and now Koji. One day the O's might learn that when you sign these over the hill veterans or failures from other organization you will spend most if not all of the season as the "doormat" of the Al East.
Sad but it doesnt have to be this way
Pete in Japan:
Well put...bringing in Johnson in the 9th is not an obvious mistake. If he does his job, most people on this blog would be touting (again) how he should be the closer and trade Sherrill while you still can.
If Bergeson goes back out and loses the lead, many contributors to this blog would be spouting how Trembley should have pull him and he lost the game (oh yeah, they already are blaming Trembley).
I believe Trembley did was most managers would have done, taken out a rookie pitcher who had pitch an excellent game, and have his bullpen preserve the win for the kid. Just did not work this time...
I might have had a different opinion if Bergeson was pitching a shutout, but eight solid innings (wish more of our staff could do that) was great.
That loss was all on Trembly. You said it Roch - we had "our" best guy going and you take him out in a big game, unacceptable! I have been a Trembly defender, but I cannot side with him on this one, he blew it. You have to leave him in there because of the type of team your playing, because of how many runs your up and because HE IS your best. If they were playing KC/Cleve those teams don't have the same firepower/focus you can do things like that; when you bring pitchers out of the pen they don't have the same focus when the game is not inside that 3 run threshold and you cannot play that game against a team the calliber of Boston. Also, he is our best and we need to build him up as such, we need to ride him when he is going like that.
That would have been a HUGE win. A series win again Boston, big! Great momentum going out to the west coast. Now that takes everything that we had going for us; we go out there totally deflated, to a place where we don't play well and try to regroup. LA is a similar team, in terms of winning and relentless execution of good baseball and then 3 with Seattle where a few weeks ago we just played the worst series of the season these are all reasons why that was a huge mistake. Yesterday was soo frustrating! Remember that game, it's going to be Trembly's undoing. He doesn't use the pen good anyway and the players don't respect him enough to play proper baseball (especially running the bases), but this is going to be his demise.
Eh, I can't rip Trembly for taking Bergy out. He was probably gassed and 99 out of 100 times your best reliever (Johnson) makes those outs.
Tough loss but it happens, especially with this team.
Now about Sherrill and Baez, both of whom should have been traded long ago....that's another blame game, one that falls squarely on Andrew's shouders.
I agree with Roch on this one. Without knowing the conversations DT had with Bergeson, I'd have sent him out there to start the 9th. Not completely against pulling him as DT did, but why mess with it if he felt ok?
Yesterdays loss completely wipes out the comeback win. Can everyone please stop talking about it now??!!
Roch, why would you say that leaving Bergeson in the game wouldn't be 'the best thing for him'??? Leaving him in the game, in my opinion, would be the absolute best thing for him. Our young guys need to learn how to pitch tired. Trembley always goes to the pitch count. I thought before the season he wasn't going to focus on the pitch count? Why do we have to keep babying everyone?
Baseball is the only sport where it seems that the players haven't evolved (pitchers). An out of shape guy like Gaylord Perry can pitch 7-8 innings per game in the 70's and 80's, yet with all the new technology these days our young pitchers can't go over 100 pitches without Trembley panicking.
Bergeson was doing fine, no problems at all. No reason he couldn't have finished that game. I would never criticize Trembley for leaving anyone in too long. I'd rather have a tired starter who has shown he can get them out for 8 innings over a new reliever anytime.
Roch you are the man! You have people writing in all the way from Japan.
And that guy who told his son it's over. I was saying uh-oh, this is a terrible move when they took Bergy out.
Sure you'd like to see Bergy get the complete game. If he goes out and gets 3 outs on 12-15 pitches, he is still under 120. That being said, I still don't have a problem with bring in JJ or Sherrill in that situation; that is what they are there for. They just didn't do there job. It (as is Sh) happens as evidenced by the Sux bullpen on Tuesday night. It is not a perfect science.
Tough one yesterday.... I'm having to ignore all Red Sox fans in my office (fyi- root canals are more fun than talking baseball w/ them!). I understand you have to trust the bullpen, but I agree w/ you that Bergenson should have been out there to start the inning.
I'm tired of bashing Trembley. Yes he is part of the problem in my view, but clearly this club has A LOT of other holes. Even w/ these young guys coming up, after yesterday I don't see the O's competeting w/ the Sox anytime soon i.e. 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, etc. etc. etc. We just don't have the same make-up and the talent they do. It's a tough pill to swallow.... but I think it's reality.
BTW- while we're all moping this morning. Chris Tillman has lost his last 5 of 6 decsions, Troy Patton is 1-2 w/ an ERA over 5 & Jake Arrieta is 1-2 at Norfolk. Glad we're not rushing those guys either. The AL East would eat them up and spit them out by August.
Roch,
In my opinion this is almost a replica of the Mothers Day meltdown last year. I like Trembley, straight shooter and doesn't try to BS the fans, but he doesn't seem to know how to beat the good teams. Teams like the Yanks and the Sox salivate when no name relievers (on a national scale) come in to replace someone that has dominated them an entire game. The names George Sherill and Jim Johnson mean nothing except to O's fans and certainly do not strike fear into the hearts of other players around the league. When you give good teams hope, you lose because good teams know how to comeback and win games. If your best pitcher is dealin and throwing well, you don't pull him unless he asks you to come out.
It was easy for most of us to convince ourselves that Brad should have stayed in the game.
Apparently the only feedback DT got from Bergy was, "I can get this guy". That's pretty emphatic. It occurred in the eighth. Why not ask him if he can go the ninth?
Hence the manager never provided a platform for the pitcher to campaign to stay in for the ninth. He was never afforded that opportunity. Bergy has earned it and I'm sure there are veteran players questioning why he didn't go out for the ninth.
He also didn't campaign to stay in because he's a rookie. Palmer and Weaver would have been rolling around on the dugout floor if Weaver had tried to remove him under the same circumstances.
I also agree with you Roch that JJ shuld have been left in to right the ship after the homerun. But, I don't think it's a seperate debate. The debate here is this manager's ability to handle a pitching staff. That's the big picture. Not just yesterday's game. Does he have what it takes to handle a pitching staff on a winning team? I've been questioning his ability to do that since last season. It's job #1 of a successful manager.
I am certainly not the best person to question the decision of a manager with enough talent to be a Major League manager. But to answer your question, I think we would still be having this discussion if JJ struck out the side. I was at the game. Roch, you heard the reaction to the fans when Trembley came out in the 8th, and then their reaction when he left Bergy in. They wanted him to stay. I fully expected to see him come out of the dugout in the ninth, and was very disappointed that he didn't. Even if Johnson had struck out the side, I would have been disappointed that Trembley did not let him finish the gem that he had started.
Having said that, I think almost every MLB manager would have done the same thing because that is where baseball has gone. After the magic 100 pitches is reached, you go to the bullpen. That is the biggest bunch of BS! I'm glad to hear that Nolan Ryan is trying to change that part of baseball culture in Texas. His school of thought is that it is actually better for the arms to stretch them out further than we are.
Anyway, this fan thinks it was the wrong call win or lose.
You have to leave Bergesen in, and give him a shot at the CG, especially with a 4-run lead. He earned and deserved it, and he was dominating the Red Sux batters. If things go bad, then you have room to maneuver.
Since there are a couple of garys I'll distinguish it a little bit. Roch, I thought it was June 5th but I went back and checked and it was the May 29th game when Bergesen tried to finish it out against the Tigers. He ended with 105 pitches that night when he went back out and tried to finish the game and ended up giving up two hits and getting pulled. He has only thrown more than 105 pitches one time and that was the complete game where he won 11-2, and he threw 112 pitches and had room with a nine run lead to make a couple of mistakes. At end of the eighth the other night he had thrown 103 pitches in a reasonably tight game. Johnson was fresh and rarely coughs it up. Obviously, hindsight says it was a bad call but I was perfectly comfortably with the decision at the time, would I have been upset with Bergesen finishing the game, no, but equally I wasn't upset with the change. Simply stated it didn't work this time. I'm guessing by reading these posts we have a lot of perfect people who don't make mistakes which is good to know. I know I don't come anywhere close to that, nice to know some of you do.
I just think that pitchers should be able to go much further with their pitching counts. 30 years ago starters went 125 - 130 on a regular basis with no more injuries (probably less because their arms were used to it) then present. Having said that Johnson should have been well rested. He just didn't get the job done. Sherrill got the ground ball he wanted, just not at a fielder. The walks from both were unacceptable.
I asked you 2 days ago if you thought dave t was the right man to lead this team in the future.I am not asking you again based on yesterday but just want you honest opinion as a baltimore sportswriter.I will now touch on another subject one that is very dear to my heart,the clear decline in brian roberts performance. he again played a ball half heartedly yesterday for his 6 error of the season. He is now 2 for his last 22 at bats, he has been striking out at a very high rate for a lead off hitter. Please somebody out there tell me that they agree that his heart is not where it's suppose to be. You can clearly see it in his body language, which i suppose everybody will tell me it's just frustration. Please do this man a favor and trade him to a team in contention so that he can regain the vigor that made him a fan favorite. Because right now his stock is surely falling .
A blog entry from a few days ago said a scout thought Bergesen was a fourth or fifth starter. I don't agree with that scout. After yesterday's game I hope that scout changed their minds. Great job Bergesen!
If you want to send Brad Bergesen back out for the 9th that's fine but you should only do it if you think he's going to finish the game. If the plan is to pull him if he lets anyone on, then you're better off bringing in an RP to start the inning with no one on base. With the way Johnson and Sherrill pitched yesterday they would have still blown the game had they come on in the middle of the inning had Bergesen let on a better.
Also think about this for a sec....
Pretend you don't know the team is the Orioles or the players they have and consider these choices in entering a 5-1 9th inning against the Red Sox....
A. Stay with the pitcher who has thrown over 100 pitches but has dominated the game and been your best starting pitcher
B. Use your top setup guy who has 12 holds on the year (top 20 in MLB) and has only given up 1 run over his last 14 appearances
C. Use your closer who is has 17/20 Saves on the year (15th in MLB) and has only given up 1 run over his last 21 appearances
Guess what, these are all good options and in fact your odds of winning a game picking just one of these options is high. We used options 2 AND 3 which should have made the odds very high. Think about it, in any game against any team, how likely is a team to score 4 runs off two pitchers who have given up 2 runs in their last 35 appearances. Bottom line, the Orioles were unlucky.
DT played his best odds and happened to lose, that alone does not make him a bad manager (or a good one). The players didn't execute and we lost. It sucks but it happens.
Anyone who wants to put yesterday's loss on Trembley is completely ridiculous. He put two of his best pitchers in the game and they couldn't do their jobs, what they are paid to do. Bottom line is they lost the game.
On another note, I think we are the only team in the league that could have such a high coming off Tuesday's game which was the greatest comeback win in team history and completely lose all that momentum with a huge deflating loss the next day.
Neither decison (leaving him in vs. taking him out) was necessarily wrong, but you are supposed to learn from history and not repeat mistakes.
Guthrie wasn't allowed to finish a game against the Sox a while back and we all know how that ended. The Red Sox, as a team, smell a victory when a dominating starter is out of the game. If there is any team in the majors that given an inch will take a mile, it's them. I would have brought Bergy back out only for that reason. That being said, I would have Sherrill warming up from the get go so he wouldn't be rushed into the game like he was yesterday.
I've gotten to the point where it's not so much the debatable move's that Dave Trembley makes that disturbs me, but his response to those moves after the game.
It's kind of like when you catch one of your kids doing something and you know they are going to have to pay the price for it. So you sit down and talk to them about it and they make it worse by trying to lie their way out of it. Now their punishment is greater. So you explain to them, "just be up front with me, tell me the truth".
In the post-game interview Dave hemmed and hawed and stumbled around in regards to removing Bergy after eight innings. As several posters pointed out, just admit you made a mistake. How about "I did what I thought was best and it didn't work out. My fault. My responsibility. It's the manager's job to win games like this and I take responsibility for the loss". Take ownersip of the situation! Please!!!
Instead we get, "You could see from the fifth inning on . . . . . " See what? Finish the statement Dave. Ohh, that he was losing it!
Bergesen allowed three of his four hits in the game during the first three innings. From the fourth inning thru the eighth he allowed two baserunners. One of those reached on the error by Brian Roberts to start the eighth. How did our rookie pitcher, who was losing it, respond to that error. The next two batters hit infield pop ups. No advancement from the runner. Which mysteriously brought our genious manager out of the dugout to see if Bergy was okay????
Roch - Thanks for responding to my question about using pinch-hitters in yesterday's game. It's true that the game wasn't lost because Zaun and Andino batted in the tenth. However, it may not have been won because they batted in the 10th. As I pointed out, we needed a momentum change after 18 straight batters being retired.
You questioned my suggestion(and supported your stance) about using Wieters as a pinch hitter, but said nothing about Salazar. Salazar was the momentum change in Tuesday's huge comeback win. We needed it again yesterday after the game was tied. A blind man could see that, but Apparently DT doesn't like success, so he let's Salazar sit. The guy's batting .500 as a pinch hitter and he doesnt get an at bat in an 11 inning game?????
Start of International Signing Period today. Any word if we are offering Sano a contract?
Roch,
Today marks the beginning of the international signing period, when teams can start signing the latest crop of young international stars. Please let us know if the O's make any noise.
Thanks,
CB
Roch
I agree with Bergy should have started the ninth. In fairness to George though Pie is a terrible outfielder. There was a blooper to CF that Jones would have had easy! I'm glad Pie is playing better IF they are keeping him however I don't trust him when the game is on the line. He did not even try to come in for it. Come on man it was the the last out Nobody was on base so go for it! When Baldeli hit hit that six hopper I thought the game was over too, any idea why Andino was so far in the hole?
It seems to me that Dave Trembley did what he was supposed to do. Maximize the use of his starter and trust the bullpen to do their jobs.
It's frustrating to hear and see some much "scape goating." Had Trembley left Bergeson in and he blows a good portion of the lead, the same folks arguing against him for pulling Bergeson would be arguing against him for leaving him in.
Trembley does not typically blow the in-game tactics. He's a solid baseball man.
Three things stand out to me from yesterday's game.
1. The phantom tag
2. Johnson's meltdown
3. The check swing
4. Andino's inability to get to a four-hopper
If Nolan Ryan was the O's president, he probably would have been fired for that move. I hope more organizations adopt his philosophy about pitch count.
Loved Bergy's comments. What a class act.
I think I agree with you, Roch. You keep JJ in there even after the Youk homer.
I can certainly agree with Bergesen coming in for a batter if only because he pounds the strike zone and you would likely have a quick solution. I also understand the leave JJ in argument.
But it's the same old " if your Aunt had nut's she'd be your Uncle " type of stuff.
Sherrill has been on an absolute roll of late so he was overdue for one of these.
Since he is the closer , they always stick out big time. And against Boston , 2 times so.
I would have loved to see Bergesen finish the game, but I wasn't upset with Jimmy Johnson coming in for the 9th. In fact I felt quite comfortable. It wasn't like we were going to one of our less consistent guys...it was JJ for Heaven's sake. There wasn't a doubt in my mind that he could handle a four run lead. Just so happens that he had a shaky first two batters and that was enough to give the vermin the idea that they could come back and win. And I think that George was just tired.
It happens. It stinks, but it happens. I don't, for one second, think that this was a game that Trembley "lost for us".
Can someone tell me what has changed about the human body in the last 40 years that guys can only throw 100 pitches now. Jim palmer threw 25 complete games in a season once (and i doubt in all of those his pitch count was under 100). I wouldnt say he blew his arm out since he pitched in 3 different decades. Guys used to start and finish both games of a double header. So whats different about cy young's body, or walter johnsons body that they could pitch every other day effectively. And johnson was probably one of the hardest throwers in history. Your telling me if Bergy goes out and throws 10-15 more pitches he's going to ruin the rest of his season/career?
I guess all in all we have to look at the big picture. that win or lose yesterday it wont matter come the end of the year. Next year though...it's on!!
I have Bergesen and Sherrill on my fantasy team so it was even worse than just experiencing an ugly loss on what was shaping up to be a beautiful win.
I probably would have let Bergesen attempt to close it out himself. The 100 pitch mark drives me crazy. Either way though, Trembley gets criticized. It's not like Johnson and Sherrill have been unreliable.
Comparing Bergesen and Porcello
Bergesen 3.53 5-2 91.2inn 46k
Porcello 3.90 8-5 83inn 44k
Roch,
Why is everyone putting Porcello above Bergesen for the Rookie of the Year candidates?
4 times is the golden sombrero ,but what is 5 times called?
I was in Tampa Bay when Thome fanned 5 times in a Sunday night game while playing for Cleve. My buddy & I were right behind the catcher in the 2nd row & started letting Thome hear about it ,strike by strike during his 4th K. We yelled G. S. at him as he stomped away. When he came up the 5th time we yelled at him & asked if he knew what 5 times getting K'ed was called? There were 10K there at most, I KNOW he heard us the previous AB. He glared right at us this time & we were laughing so hard , it just made him look madder. He wanted to kill us I think I got that look right... We shouted ONE then TWO... as the strikes happened, he wasn't even close to touching either pitch. He struck out the next pitch & now we had the whole row laughing & screaming CINCO de Striko or something to that affect at him. I admit to copious amounts of cold ones that night. Our best friend was the beer guy naturally... We were on national TV too, we had friends calling us on our cells from the 4th inning on asking us WTF were we doing at a D Rays game in April & how did we get those seats?
My best 5 K memory....
Pete in Japan said:
The most overrated job a manager has is in-game decision making. Should he pinch hit player A or player B or leave in player C? Should he bring in pitcher X or pitcher Y or leave in pitcher Z? More often than not it won't make a difference, and when it does it usually evens out over the long haul.
Whoa, big fella! If your objective is to minimize the importance of a manager during a game, perhaps you should consider not using pitching changes to make your case.
When to replace a pitcher, especially the starter, is arguably the MOST important responsibility for a manager.
I do like your "Obvious Mistake Test." I think it can be used also to judge opinions, statements and conclusions put forth on this blog.
The evaluation of "it won't make a difference" is in - the litmus strip just turned red indicating a blatant disregard of the obvious by a poster.
In an attempt to render this comment less snide, I thought that the rest of your post was good stuff, well written. Nice to know that, in Japan, we have at least two members of the School of Roch.
Roch
I agree with you about letting Beresen at least start the 9th, but also besides Pitch count there are innings too. The most innings Bergesen has pitched in the minors is 165, last year. Between Norfolk and Baltimore he has already pitched 102 innings with 84 left will he get 15-16 more starts, healthy? Still I would have let him start the 9th, there just are other factors.
O's Fan in Nebraska - If Bergy had started the ninth and been left in long enough to lose the game, this blog would be lit up like the Christmas tree in Christmas Vacation. That means he would have been left in long enough to allow five baserunners to reach. No one here has suggested that. I would have allowed him to have two baserunners then remove him. Some here suggested only one.
BLancione - I could be way off base, but I think Brian Robert's has determined in his mind that DT is not the guy to lead this team out of the losing that has been standard during Robert's career as an Oriole. Brian's a smart baseball guy. They showed him in the dugout after yesterday's game . . . totally disgusted. Not surprising, anyone who cares should be, but for Brian I think it's deeper than that. Dave, I believe lost major points earlier this year with Brian, when he said something to the press about having this little talk with Brian. Robert's, seemingly in disbelief, responded as if there was never a talk.
Mike R - What has happened to the human body in the last forty years that only allows pitchers to go 100 pitches? You'll find the answer in that two and a half pound object between the pitcher's ears.
Brian- Striking out 5 times is called the "Horn of Plenty" I believe after our old friend Sam Horn accomplished that feat.
Warehouse21- Porcello is certainly coming back to the pack. His ERA is up and his K's are way down (sucks for my fantasy team). A win from Bergeson would have really tightened the race but it didn't happen because of the bullpen - NOT Trembley. I agree that I would have sent him out there like many of you, but for God's sake, it wasn't even a save situation. They choked just like the Sox choked the day before.
We had the chance to make the Red Sox stew on this series, but we proved on Wednesday that Tuesday was a fluke and they are a far superior ballclub. If it makes anyone feel better, the next 90 games would have served the same function.
Roch - i've got some friends in the warehouse who've heard rumors about Trembley being on a short-leash with Angelos (short as in not returning next year) b/c while he's a good minor league coach, it hasn't translated well to the major league talent and he's not good at interacting with the vets. heard anything on that?
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Not at all. If I had, I would have written it. - Roch
Roch-
Can you do a post on Sano or any other international news the O's might be making? I think it's an excellent chance for us to make a splash with relatively low risk. Might fit in well in a "Because you asked"... or in this case, "Porque Preguntasteis."
I probably would have gone the Roch strategy, although one factor that nobody has pointed out was who was due up. It was Pedroia-Youkilis-Bay, with Ortiz looming next. That's about the strongest middle of the lineup trio you'll have to face, plus an historically dangerous guy who seems to have gotten back on track lately. Bringing in your fresh top-notch setup man instead of staying with the potentially tiring rookie makes a lot more sense when you consider that.
I don't have strong arguments against Trembley's in game decisions, and generally feel complaining about bullpen usage is the fan's easiest way to complain about something for the sake of complaining. The baserunning foibles, which aren't just restricted to this year, are the strongest indictment of Trembley in my book. The BP numbers are scary, since with multiple years of data it is clear they aren't a fluke and we're not just at the edge of the distribution, we're an outlier - notably worse than even a bad baserunning team. I suspect it's just that Trembley preaches things like secondary leads, going first to third, etc. Good advice, but not everyone can or should do it. The best baserunners know their abilities and get the farthest they can without being thrown out.
Look, there wasn't one good reason to remove him. Not one! Talk all you want about how the releivers should be expected to hold that lead. The bottom line is, Dave the Hook had no reason to remove him in the first place. NONE!
Rochet Man, he is driving me crazy...just not a very good manager, I'm afraid. There was a reason he was only a bullpen coach after all those years before he sorta fell into this job.
He's over his head. Time to send him and his cement head back to the bullpen.
Ok roch i have plenty of time. I will ask you once a week until you reply Or if you reply. You probably feel very uncomfortable talking about dave t job, it's almost Like You are caught between a ROCH and a hard place.
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I'll probably write something down the line when I have a firm opinion on it. I'm undecided. But you can keep asking anyway if it makes you happy. - Roch
Isn't Dave the same manager who pinch hit for Mora the other night with Salazar? And how did that move turn out?
John Z made the comment on his 8:34 post that we think Sherrill and Johnson are top of the line and that Boston treated them as batting practice pitchers. I have to take exception to that comment because they are one of the better 1/2 combos going right now and isn't the combo of Okajima/Paplebon combo suppose to be pretty good and let see if my memory serves me correctly, six hits, one walk and four earned runs plus two inherited runners scored. I guess they're pretty bad too. You can't be perfect all the time and dare I say, I hate when Thorne and Palmer start running how many consecutive great outings and saves and era, blah, blah, talk about the kiss of death. Do the play by play and then tell us the wonderful streaks after its over. I swear Thorne is a Red Sox fan and does that crap on purpose trying to invoke the dreaded kiss of death but that's a story for another day. Bring back the good old days of Mel Proctor and Brother Lo-lo but I digress.
I believe we've overlooked the one defining reason why Brad Bergesen should have started the 9th inning; namely, because that would have been the best thing for Bergesen AND for the Orioles. During the off season and into spring training, Andy McPhail kept lowering the fans' expectations by continually stating that the team would not compete for the division title in 2009. He said that this year was about continuing with "The Plan" to develop the young position players and pitchers to get them ready to make a contribution in 2010 and 2011. If that's all true, then sending Bergesen out for the 9th innings would have been sending a message not only to him, but also to Arrieta, Tillman, Patton, and Matusz that the Orioles believe that their "development" includes completing their games under similar circumstances to those that existed yesterday. Moreover, that the team expects them to be able to do that under those circumstances.
Let's review those circumstances. At the end of the eighth inning, Bergesen had thrown 103 pitches...including only 9 in that last inning. He had retired 15 of the last 17 batters. He had walked none and kept his pitches down in the zone. No Red Sox player was getting around on his pitches and pulling them, no one was hitting the ball hard, no warning track fly balls, or line drives hit directly into Orioles gloves, etc. In essence, no signs of him losing his effectiveness. It wasn't brutally hot or humid, and Bergesen doesn't have an exaggerated delivery (a la Warren Spahn's high leg kick) that could wear him out.
Even IF Bergesen had collapsed and blown the game in the ninth, it still would have been an opportunity to have been a learning experience...that the game is 27 outs long, not 24. Trembley seems so hell bent on protecting these guys as if they're little leaguers with fragile egos. These are grown men who have reached the level of their careers because they have excelled at playing baseball. Show some confidence that, even in a worst case scenario, they won't become destroyed if the game slips away.
To me, the real loss yesterday was Bergesen NOT being able to beat Becket, one of the top pitchers in the American League. The announcers said that Beckett was 7-0 lifetime against the Orioles. How valuable to Brad's "development" would that win have been the next time he has to face Sabathia or Halliday. And make no mistake, if Bergesen is our number 1, that's who he's going to be going up against in the second half.
The Orioles will probably finish fifth again, and win 65-75 games this year. So there is a lot more to this season than winning. Trembley should have seen the bigger picture. I'm sure McPhail does.
Finally, a question for you Roch, IF the circumstances described above didn't warrant sending Bergesen out for the 9th yesterday, exactly what do they have to be? A ten run lead with the starter only having thrown 80 pitches?
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Being under 100 pitches definitely would have helped. - Roch
I am still shocked about yesterday's loss. I actually thought that DT did make the right move by bringing in JJ. JJ is one of our best relievers and anyone probably thought that this game is a victory when they saw Johnson coming in. No one expected him to fall apart. But, I would give Johnson a chance to right the ship after the Youkolis homer. JJ is bettter then that and we still had a 2 run lead. If JJ is going to be our future closer, then he has got to finish the 9th yesterday, and right the ship. Like I said, I agree with DT bringing in JJ but I didn't agree on him bringing in Sherril when JJ fell apart and had the opportunity to put himself back together. This game could have been won by the Orioles in so many ways but they were just unlucky. The Umpires, the check-swing that should have ended the game, and the groundball that Andino should have picked up. People might blame the loss on DT. Some may blame it on the Umpires, JJ, Sherril, or even Andino. I blame this loss mostly on the Umpires, and the groundball that Andino should have recovered. Games like yesterday suck, but you have to move on.