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"Since when is 103 pitches too many?"

I think a lot of baseball purists have been watching baseball over the past 10 -20 years and asking themselves the same question. It's kind of ridiculous how you look at stats from the day and pitchers were racking up 15 complete games per year, no sweat. But, I guess the times have changed.

Man, its a tough call, but I respectfully disagree.

I think that Johnson has built (and earned) a reputation as being one of the best one-to-two inning guys in the AL. Sherrill is going to be our ASG representative... Most of the time these guys are going to protect that lead and this won't even come up.

If I'm managing I am going to Johnson in that exact situation 100 out of 100 times. Trembley almost pulled Bergy after two outs in the 8th; but Bergy made a case to stay in. Its pretty safe to say that getting through the 8th was enough, and it should have been enough. I feel that the mistake (as Roch said) is that Trembley pulled JOHNSON after Youk's homer. He has a clean slate and a 2-run lead. Yes, he threw up about 9 balls to 4 strikes, but you send Kranitz out there to calm him down and you see what your guy can do. Sherrill was gassed before even getting put out there, and he probably wasn't the call last night.

Anyways, what happened is past. I'm optimistic enough to look at the positives and see that Berg has yet again outdone himself. Four hitting that ballclub is no small feat; it probably happens less than a handful of times in a 162 game season, and it probably only comes when elite pitchers are on the mound. Win or lose, that's enough to bring a smile to my face.

P.S. I just hope we don't see the Jerry Layne umpiring crew any time in the near future. If memory serves, he's usually a very solid umpire, but that crew repeatedly made mistakes the entire series. A few is forgivable, as it is an extremely difficult job, but a few each game is highly upsetting.

For all your talk of protecting the young arms, patience, and "it's not about this year," your arguments have completely flipped.

Bergy is very likely on a pitch count, and I sure as heck hope he is. It's his first year in the bigs, and it's a long season (notably long than MILB). We want this kid around next year and down the road. He's clearly got what it takes, and I wouldn't be so willing start bad practices just to get a win in 2009.

Second guessing the manager's hook on a rookie arm at 100+ pitches, a count he consistently has shown tiring in the past, is reactionary hindsight and irresponsible.
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When has he shown he was tiring in the past. When he threw a 112-pitch complete game vs. Atlanta a few starts back? Did he look like he was tiring to you. If that was tired pitching in the 7th and 8th, I'll take it every night.

By the way, expressing an opinon is not irresponsible. I cover the team every day and have an educated opinon I expressed. You don't have to agree with it, but it's certainly not irresponsible. Give me a break. - Steve

"When has he... ...not irresponsible. Give me a break. - Steve"

As I'm sure you well know, it is always a bad idea for a professional journalist to respond petulantly in a comment thread for his or her article. It makes you look petty and insecure.
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You can look at me any way you like. This was not a newspaper article, it was a comment made to my blog and I can respond to a commenter any way I like. Mostly I take the high road, but not always. Sorry it ruffled your feathers.

Steve

I have less problem with the Bergesen pull than the fact he never pinch hit Wieters. In a game like that why not get a little more pop into the lineup?

Steve,

How far back do the statistical services track pitch counts? I'm not interested in going all the way back to the Palmer era of the 4 man rotation, but lets say the 1989 Why Not season and look at the pitch counts for Ballard, Millacki, Johnson etc. I gotta believe they were somewhere in the 135-140 pitches per 9 innings level. Today's better conditioned athletes gotta be able to get that far on 4 days rest, especially when its not 95 degrees with 95% humidity...
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Not sure on that one. I just checked Jim Palmer's career on baseball-reference.com and they don't have any pitch counts on any of his games. He last pitched in 1984.

Steve

Although I would have liked to see Bergy finish the game, I have no problem with Trembley's decision. Johnson has been dominant and Sherrill is the closer. What I do believe is that Sherrill is not a closer. He is a very good lefty specialist and he can be good for one inning. He doesn't command the strike zone well enough to consistently go 1, 2, 3. We need a closer, and Trembley's fate should be determined later. For the record, I'm betting he sticks until MacPhail feels the Os can contend, then he gets a big name to run the club.

Casey and Dukie,

Why ya hatin' on Steve? Were you knuckle heads co-joined at birth, sharing the same brain?

This is his blog; don't subject him to over-wrought accusations and don't be surprised if he chooses to defend himself against such piffle.

Anyway, a little well-placed petulance always gets the blood boiling, focusing the mind.
It can be very enlivening, really it can.

Even-handedness has always been a hallmark of Steve's reporting. To accuse him of being irresponsible in writing about his judgment is beyond the pale.

Second-guessing is the birthright of every baseball fan! Even so, my guess is that Steve was probably muttering to himself as Dave removed Brad.
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I think I was. Thanks a lot for the support. - Steve

The second guessing I have isn't with the pitching, but with the bottom of the 9th. I would have pinched hit for zahn and there shortstop the names leraving a blank lol, but you have matt Wieters and oscar solzar and melven mora on the bench. all they needed at the time was 1 run, so what if weiters and oscar didn't do it, would have had melven more playing third then, and wiggington at short. but anyway thats what I would have done

With any other Oriole pitcher, that move would have probably been OK. But Bergy has demonstrated his ability to complete the game and he was not in trouble. It was a dumb move, pure and simple. I definite do not think DT is the manager who can take us over the top. He is bookish and stubborn. His instincts stink!!

Steve,

Any update on international free agents. I know Sano may take a while to sign, but are the Orioles going to sign/announce smaller signings today, or will no one be signed relatively soon? Thanks
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You have probably seen Roch just wrote an update about Sano. I have not heard about other int. free agents, if I do, I'll sure pass it along. - Steve

Steve, I think you've mistaken my comment. I'm not trying to say you're COMMENTS are irresponsible. I'm saying blaming the manager and not protecting the young pitchers is irresponsible. Otherwise, you get injured pitchers and ignore the real problem of the bullpen not holding a 4-run lead in the 9th. In the position of a GM who also must evaluate these events, I think blaming DT, plus asking the Bergy, a rookie, to go extra deep in a game that should be "in the bag," is irresponsible.

Regarding the issue of Bergy tiring, he would have been entering the 9th inning at 103 pitches to face the core of their lineup the 4th time through. While he did throw 112 against ATL, I think that's kinda cherry-picking. He threw more pitches that start than anytime this year. Additionally, Atlanta's offense is not comparable to Boston's. You've got last year's MVP, potentially this year's MVP in Youk and a slew of other Allstars. Assuming he breezes through the inning and throws only 15 pitches against Pedroia, Youk, and Bay, that still puts him at the highest pitch count this season thus far--118. I think that's pushing the limit for a rookie.

Looking back at his starts 5/13-5/23 against some strong offenses:
5/13 TBR, 5.2 IP, P 96.
5/19 @ NYY, 6.1 IP, P 107.
5/23 @ WSN, 5.2 IP, P 89.

Each of these starts he was pulled in the middle of the inning as he allowed men on base and his pitch count elevated to the 90+ range.

Again @ PHI on 6/20, 6.1IP, 81 P.

Bergy's been incredibly consistent, and probably our best starting pitcher, but I have to disagree with your decision to keep him in passed 103 pitches based on his previous performances. There'se so much risk involved in keeping a young pitcher out there in his first year, especially since Bergy tired some towards the end of last year in the minors.

Lastly, I don't have anything against your opinions Steve. In fact I love reading your posts and hope you continue the great coverage. Just know I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just trying to provoke good discussion.
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I appreciated your writing back. Trembley has said before sometimes you have to go with the "eye" test, meaning what do you see. I saw a pitcher in complete command, not laboring a bit. If he starts the 9th and the first guy homers (worst case scenario) he could come out then. The "eye" test told me Bergy should have been out there in the ninth. - Steve

I really think Trembley made the right decision. In the eighth, Bergesen's velocity on his sinker dropped to the 86-88 range, rather than the 89-91 he had for most of the game. Furthermore, the Redsox hitters were starting to consistently elevate the ball and hit more solid fly-ball outs than weak grounders. Lastly, if Bergesen had stayed in for the ninth, he would have been facing the middle of the order for the fourth time, and without his best stuff. If you'll remember, earlier in the year in a similar situation, Bergesen took a 7-2 lead into the ninth against the Tigers, and Trembley left him in. Bergesen then gave up two straight hits to start the inning before being pulled for Jim Johnson, who shut the Tigers down, retiring the next 3 batters. So while I agree that 103 pitches is not too much in and of itself, I saw 4 reasons to be taking Bergesen out, 5 if you include how good Jim Johnson has been lately. I'm as upset as anyone that we took the loss, and we certainly might have won if Bergesen had gone back out there, but at the time it was a perfectly valid decision on Trembley's part and, I would argue, the correct one.
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I don't agree with that. In the 8th he got a ground ball (Roberts error) and two pop ups, should have been out of the inning on three easy outs. Then he got Drew to fly to left. The three hitters due up in ninth were a combined 2 for 9 vs. Bergy.

Steve

I feel Trembley has been guilty of this more than once. He seems to focus on pitch count exclusively to go to the pen. I understand the fear of burning out young arms, but the man continues to burn out his bullpen. As you said:

'Sherrill had thrown 25 tough pitches the night before."

It was unnecessary to "risk" the possibility that JJ might have a bad night, becasue you would almost be certainly tasked with the possiblity of bringinf in a tired a Sherrill. That's exactly what happened.

I guess it's me, but my idea of a bullpen is more to put out fires, not to start them. There was no fire. Bergeson is not a firebrand on the mound, but a finesse pitcher with a simple windup. Trembley seems to almost be like a machine where he simply brings in JJ for the eight if a pitcher does over 100 pitches and Sherrill for the ninth. If it goes to the ninth and starter goes over 100, then it's JJ and sherrill in releif. It's automatic. That's not managing, anyone could do that.

I'm sure Kranitz and the players are not going to say anything against his manager, but this was a boneheaded move. Bring Bergeson out for the ninth. If he gets in trouble then go to the pen to put the fire out. The Red Sox are tough to shut down. When you've got a pitcher on the mound doing that, don't replace him until the other team makes you replace him.

A crying shame becasue this shoudl have been Bergeson's win. Instead it's Trembley's loss.

Been talking to Dave Johnson recently Steve?

I think he used those exact words on the radio........"I bet as soon as Bergesen was taken out of the game the heads in the Red Sox dugout perked up" etc.

I very much disagree. There were I believe SEVEN managers that had their starters go 7 innings or more yesterday.......and they pulled said starter with a lead. 6 of those starters got the win, 1 did not (obviously Trembley).

Were Gardenhire, Piniella, Gaston, and all the other guys bad managers? I would say no, they are just playing the game the way that it is played. Trembley's bullpen COLLAPSED on him, which makes his decision look 100x worse than it was. the two most dominant relievers in the O's pen should be able to hold a 4 run lead, even if it IS the red sox.

If the players play well, we give them praise. If they don't.......we blame the manager. One of these days it needs to stop.
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I don't care what the other managers did. I'm talking about one decision made in one game. I've seldom second guessed Trembley's decisons, so this has to stop after one time? Go back and re read what I said. I standy by that. - Steve

if the players execute, there is no wrong decision. With four run lead to hold for one inning, Bergy, JJ or Sherrill "should" have been able to preserve that win. Either choice was defensible "in the moment". In the abstract, if we assume that any of the three "should" have been able to hold thta lead, which choice is logical? I say the course that Tremblay chose.

1. You dont bring in Sherrill because it wasnt a save situation. Like this concept or not, it is conventional strategy for a reason.

2. If we assume that any of the three "should" be able to protect that lead, you pull Bergy because right now he is the most vauable man on the roster. He is the best starter and possibly the only consistently competent starter right now. So you are conservative with him, not stretching him out when the team has that big a lead.

3. Your decision comes down to JJ or Baez and I belive Tremblay was setting up his team for the road trip. One inning for either of them doesnt affect their availablity going forward.

You can agree or disagree with the move but it certainly was not "crazy" or a "bad decision" or "bad managing". It made sense. It was a viable baseball decision. It didnt work. The better team won. We won one we shouldnt have won, then we lost one we shouldn't have lost. The universe is in balance, the yin matches the yang, pop goes the weasel.

I disagree that it was the "wrong" decision. If JJ and Sherrill had done their jobs, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And, because there is no way to know if Bergesen would have held the lead either, there is no way to declare the decision wrong. If DT had left Bergesen in and he blew the lead, would anyone have said that was the right decision? I seriously doubt it.
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If Bergy had started the ninth, no way he would have been left in to the blow the lead. If he put one or two men on, then you to to the pen, still probably up by four runs. My guess if he might have gotten one or two or three quick outs as he had been getting all game. - Steve

it appears that trebley is a bright, articulate honorable man. he over manages in many cases and doesn't seem to have the whatever "it" is be a top flight manager. the way bergesen was pitching he should have been given the opportunity to start teh 9th and go from there. maybe even worse after the play where pie was thrown out at second trembley said he saw (which replay verifies)pedroia tag pie with his glove and the ball was in his bare hands. trembley said he didn't think arguing the call would do any good so he stayed in the dugout. h should have been out to 2nd base on the dead run. and he could have asked to have the other umps confer to see if any of them saw the play. he's just not a real instinctive manager and i would hope the orioles look to find someone in the mold of davey johnson as their next manager. an actual mold of davey might work. stick it in the corner of the dugout and just hook up a tape recorder of davey talking baseball and play it.

I don't always agree with you but I do most the time, including this matter.

Off topic - Do you know why you only see the "shift" on power left-handed pull hitters as opposed to the righties?
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Jeff, I have seen some teams shift for righties, but it does seem like lefties only lately. I'm trying to remember, maybe it has happened vs. Manny Ramirez.

Steve

About the shift for righties,

(This is based purely on why I think its not done... no hard-core evidence to back this up).

I think that the reason the shift isn't placed in effect for right handed hitters is because you obviously need to have your first baseman man his position. This creates an enormous gap in the power alley to right center; which is NOT what you want to allow any of these sluggers to have. Obviously, when they do the Papi shift to a lefty then the third baseman plays short, and the big gap is on the line... so unless they have the ability to poke it directly down the line you aren't at nearly as big of a risk at giving up an extra base hit.

That's what I think, at least. Could be wrong, but it seems logical to me.
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It's a good point, I've still seen it done, but maybe that's why you don't see it as much. That first baseman can stray only so far from the bag. - Steve

Steve:
I disagree with your assessment in a number of ways:
1. Bergesen is a rookie with great stuff and a great future.
2. His BEST STUFF is his SINKER.
3. What happens when a Sinker-baller gets TIRED? His ball moves up the strike zone and gets hit hard.
4. His ball still had movement in the 6th thru 8th inning BUT a number of them were UP and lucky for us, they were popups or fly balls. I think that's was Dave was trying to say about his comments concerning the "5th inning on".
5. The umpires in this series were down right terrible for both teams and blew so many calls it was "little league like." Palmer was right when he made the comment about "if a player isn't good enough to stay in the majors because of the way he plays, he's sent down and so should umpires."
6. On Vivanno's show today, he pointed out 5 or 6 Managers who did the exact same thing with their pitchers by pulling them in the 7th and 8th innings. The relievers cam in and shut down the other team.
7. BOTTOM LINE -- JJ and Sherrill didn't do their job. George even admitted it that 25 pitches the day before wasn't the problem. Also, if I can refresh your memory, how many pitches and innings did he throw in last year's All Star game? He kept coming out and getting the job done.
Second-guessing is fine in some cases but I can't buy it in this case.

Keep up the good work.

JO

Sorry, but I agree with Trembly. Our bullpen has to get 3 outs with a 4 run lead. It doesn't always happen, obviously, but they gotta get the job done. They know this and this is not a rant on the bullpen. They have done a fine job for most of the season. We need to get our starting pitching better and that does not include burning out the only consistent arm we have.
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You don't need to be sorry about expressing your opinion. - Steve