Defective rumors about policy
According to mlbtraderumors, which satisfies my need for one-stop shopping, the Cubs and White Sox have joined the list of teams believed to be interested in Cuban left-hander Aroldis Chapman.
The Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals and Mets figure to be especially aggressive in their pursuit of Chapman, according to various reports, but what about the Orioles?
I've already stated that they're unlikely to outbid the favorites for him, but according to a high-ranking team official, there's no organizational policy against signing Cuban defectors that would stand in their way.
It was pointed out to me that, when the Orioles traveled to Cuba for an exhibition game in March 1999, critics spun their humanitarian efforts as a cynical attempt to sign players. Once that never happened, those same groups accused them of having a policy against it.
According to the official, no such restrictions exist. That's good news for John Stockstill, the Orioles' director of international scouting who has watched Chapman in workouts. His efforts would have been wasted.
I guess we can put that rumor to bed, but I still don't think the Orioles will coax Chapman into signing.
ESPN's Jorge Arangure predicts that Chapman will receive a contract worth between $40-$60 million. Scouts have varying opinions on whether he's ready to step into a major league rotation, will need to become more polished in the minors or is better suited for the bullpen.
As for today's question, let's just make a few simple adjustments to the one I posted yesterday:
Which young position player in Orioles history surprised you the most by being much better in the majors than you anticipated, and which one was the biggest disappointment because he never met your high expectations for him?
No fair choosing Adam Loewen two days in a row.
I'm not talking about a veteran who was signed as a free agent or acquired via trade. I'm thinking more along the lines of a prospect who came up through the system and failed you for whatever reason - injuries, poor production, too much hype.
I'm tempted to nominate Jeffrey Hammonds for biggest disappointment because of the hype surrounding him as the fourth overall pick in the 1992 draft and all the talk of him becoming the next Eric Davis or Rickey Henderson.
He was Jeffrey Hammonds, which allowed him to stick around the majors for parts of 13 seasons. He can be proud. He just wasn't as special as I anticipated.
I'll give it more thought. There might be a more deserving candidate.
Meanwhile, is anyone else freaked out by the Tabasco ad with the singing pepperonis? When those faces pop up on the pizza, I want to run screaming from the room.
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Categories (click for archive)Roch Kubatko | Roch Kubatko Orioles |
Ryan Minor.
One could nominate Ben McDonald for that award. At the time he was probably the most hyped prospect ever, at least in this organization, but he never came close to meeting those expectations.
Ryan Minor? Was he the guy that was supposed to take over for Cal at 3rd? If that's not it, who am I thinking of? I can see his face...If so he didn't quite pan out.
Disappointments: Mark Corey, Bob Bonner, Jim Fuller, Mike Young, Ken Gerhart, Calvin Pickering
Suprises: Paul Blair, Eddie Murray, Brian Roberts
One that surprised me the most has to be Brian Roberts. He was clearly the weaker of the two (Hairston) when they were coming up. Once he was given a shot to play everyday, he excelled.
Dont forget abotu Calvin Pickering on the opposite end of the spectrum. Or even Matos.
I am NOT sure we can put the issue of not signing defectors to bed simply because one official said so. Without a name, I tend to lose credibility on the statement. With a name, we have someone to go back to if the pattern continues. THis organization has said a lot of things only to go back to doing the opposite. Did the official go on the record or was it a behind the scenes type comment?
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It was more of a fact-finding mission. If the person wanted to be quoted, he'd be quoted. But this isn't an intern working the copy machine. This person would know. - Roch
Roch, Could you please stop answering questions and comments from the folks who like to irritate us well meaning fans of your blog. I'm getting so tired of reading the comments and thinking they might have a valid point to find their just being annoying to all of us and you. You keep answering their incessant banter more than the students who actually have something to say.
I'd also like to suggest that others reframe from comment on them also.
I really don't want to name names, but we all know who they are.
Please Roch, for the love of all things grand here in your classroom, please dismiss the class clowns.
Just saying.
Funny you should ask about those pepperonis, my initial reaction was definitely to be freaked out, now I find myself staying in the room just to hear their jingle. Im starting to wonder if those pepperonis know something I dont. Would have been hilarious if that was your official question of the day! hehe.
Most recently, Bob McCrory. I was rooting for this guy, but every time he took the mound, bad things happened. There was another kid who graduated from Elkton High in 1987, but I don't remember his name. He made at least one start for the O's in the 90's I believe and then fell off the radar.
Biggest surprise: Steve Finley (yeah, the Orioles apparently didn't see that one coming either) ... too bad he didn't spend much of his career with the Orioles.
Biggest disappointment: Gotta agree with your tentative pick on Hammonds. He didn't fulfill the hype that originally surrounded him.
There were a few disappointments. Steve Finley and Craig Worthington to name a few. Even Mike Mussina didnot meet expectations. Cy young winner or I never considered him a big game pitcher. Later, Steve as well as Kurt Schilling, became stars with other teams. But, I want to say Brian Roberts, was probably my most surprising player. I really thought he was another overrated player viewed by O's brass. He is not the best 2nd baseman in MLB, but I would say so far, he comes in a close 2nd.
Darnell McDonald didn't live up to any kind of hype... Brian Roberts really came out of nowhere for me and became one of the Os most popular players in recent memory (and my favorite Oriole now).
Roch-
Larry Bigbie HAS to be the 1 guy. What a bust he was.
I guess you could say Brian Roberts is the over-achiever. Anytime anyone is above average, unless they were a top 5 pick or so, you just can not assume they will be as good as Roberts has been.
The problem now is, he is gonna start slowing down soon.
There was a great point on a story on the Balt Sun website 2 days ago when it comes to Chapman, Sano, Kikuchi (sp?), and many other free agents.
Baltimore carried a payroll of 97 million, and an average of 93 million for 4 years in the mid 90's, then signed Belle. Had Guerrero signed here in 04, their payroll would have been 91 million.
Meanwhile, in the last 9 years, their payroll average is only 60.5 million.
That is a savings of 9 x 35.5 or 309 million. When they talk about not being able to hang with the big boys in spending for international free agents, or ANY free agents for that matter, something just is NOT adding up.
If they can't or refuse to sign the big time free agents, the ONLY way to compete consistently is to sign the best talent in the drafts and IFA's. If they are not going to go after those type, and keep crying it's because of money (which just isn't true), they are NEVER going to win consistently.
Halliday, Mauer, Lincecum, and so many others are going to be coming on FA in the next few seasons, and if the O's don't start to pull, as Posada, Jeter, Varitek, Ortiz, and others start to retire, the Sox and Yanks are just gonna keep reloading, while we have to wait and see if a prospect pans out.
Exceeded: B-Rob. Never really expected him to hold any major league records.
Disappointed: Wieters. B-U-S-T. (I kid...) So many choices here, but I liked your suggestion of Matt Riley yesterday. McDonald is probably better but I blame that on LSU. I would also accept Hammonds, Luis Matos, Curtis Goodwin, Brad Pennington.
Best suprise- Brian Roberts
Biggest disappointment - Big Ben McDonald
By the way. Would love to sign John Lackey over the winter. What a gamer. He wanted the ball last night and did not want to come out. He would be great as a vetern leader for the young guns. We need him. Pony up front office, Pony up!
I'd like to answer the question in a slightly different way by saying that Jayson Werth might have surprised the Orioles brass the most. Larry Bigbie would be my nominee for the second one.
I always thought that Devereaux was an overrated stiff. He never walked, struck out too much, looked awful in CF (my recollections, not necessarily reflected in reality), and to top it all off he was the reason that Steve Finley was moved in the Glenn Davis deal.
On the flip side, I always thought that Sam Horn and Tony Tarasco should have turned out better than they did. I know Horn was slow as a turtle but Ken Phelps and Ron Kittle had substantial careers with similar skill sets and I think the O's gave up on Horn too early. Similarly, I remember being pretty excited to get Tarasco from the Expos, given his AAA numbers and his prior year in Montreal, but he never seemed to get playing time because they were trying to prove that Hammonds should be an everyday OF.
And a special shout out to Glenn Davis. Hindsight is 20/20, but Davis was coming off six straight seasons of 20+ HRs in the Astrodome, Top 10 in the MVP voting 3 out of 4 seasons including a runner-up, solid defense, and if it were 1981 all over again I'd make that trade again. Of course, I'd have to not know how it was going to turn out.
Leo Gomez or Manny Alexander
I would describe that commercial more as disturbing than anything. But I agree, talking pepperonis are just not right. For something some of us eat so much of, we'd rather not have them humanized.
As for the dud prospects, Chris Richard, Larry Bigbie, Rocky Coppinger...
You better be prepared for some long lists...
Biggest surprise:
Maybe Chris Hoiles since he was almost an after thought in the trade that sent an over the hill Fred Lynn out of town. He made us forget all about Mickey Tettleton.
Disappointment
Bob Bonner: Was our shortstop of the future in 1982 and pegged to replace Belanger. His failure to develop resulted in Earl Weaver placing Cal at short. Everyone in the national media thought Earl was nuts.
Hon. Mention: Calvin Pickering, Ryan Minor, Mark Corey, Jim "Big Stick" Traber...
i'd second ryan minor. can't even remember what happened to him.
i went to the orioles/cuba game at camden yards with a family friend that we bought tickets from for many years. as a 16 yr old baseball fan, it was a really neat experience, but it was probably the coldest, wettest, nastiest game i've been too ever. even the game this year that i went to when it rained an inch in 20 minutes wasn't as bad. not to mention, if memory serves, they lost.
Whats even freakier then that commercial is the billboard on Odonnel St. that says "Ever Had LEPROSY?".....thanks to animal research you probably dont!.........WTF?
Anyway, Jeffery Hammonds was a colossal dissapointment for us..... did well for the Rocks though. And my biggest surprise personally is Roberts, I never thought he'd do much with the bat and I admittingly wanted us to keep Hairston over him.
I'll get the ball rolling with Calvin Pickering. I kept thinking he'd be the next Mo Vaughn but he wasn't even Sam Horn.
Biggest Surprise was the couple of good years for rich Coggins who was overshadowed (and maybe helped by) Al Bumbry.
Biggest Disappointments: Dave Nicholson (not the Boog powell clone everyone thought); and how could anyone forget the inimitable Drungo LaRue Hazewood, Jr.
I remember Val Majewski, Larry Bigbie, and Matos were supposed to be the O's outfield of the future. No further comment needed.
Better than Expected Award; Jason Werth
Not as Good as Expected Award; Mark Smith
Manny Alexander...he was a lock to replace Ripken at SS. How did that work out?
Most Disappointing = Mike Epstein. He had some success elsewhere, but never lived up to the hype for the Birds. International League Player of the year before he got to us. On a smaller scale, but a similar build up of expectations as with Wieters. Still thinking about the other half of the question. Or was that two questions?
Josh, pitching was yesterday. McDonald was a pitcher not a position player.
Roch, Hammonds is easily the guy, I agree. How could anyone pick otherwise? As for the most pleasant surprise, that's a real tough call. For twenty years the organization has not devleoped much at all until recently, and the top guys from the distant past were typically expected to be good. I'll go with Chris Hoiles, although he was acquired in a deal he was still a kid when he arrived.
Roch,
Why do you see the front office not trying to outbid the "favorites" for Chapman?
Is it a money issue or more of a "stance" being taken by the front office?
What is your take on why this front office is not being more aggressive with going after these young and talented individuals? Wasn't it told to the fans by the front office they are trying to be more active in the international market?
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Being more active doesn't mean overpaying to sign everybody. I just don't think they're going to go that high for a pitcher or get involved in a bidding war with the likes of NY and Boston. - Roch
Biggest surprise to me had to be B-ROb. I remember his first stint with the Orioles when he filled in at SS. He was a subpar fielder who looked like was destined to play his career someplace else...until he found a home at 2B.
Biggest disappointment: Take your pick between Ryan Minor and Manny Alexander. Both were supposed to be heir apparents to Cal Ripken and both turned out to be 4-A players.
Had member of the Orioles front office tell me way back when that Ken Gerhart would be a 10 time all-star and our best CF ever. Kinda disappointed how that turned out.
My first choice for biggest disappointment would be Jeffrey Hammonds as well. Larry Bigbie is another one - he had high expectations. I thought that Craig Worthington would be a little better too.
Biggest surprise? Cal Ripken was thought to be good when he came up, but I don't think anyone could have predicted his Hall of Fame career. He had some amazing stats and is one of very few players to win Rookie Of The Year and MVP back-to-back.
Brian Roberts is another one who surprised me with how good he's become. I didn't think Nolan Reimold would stick last year, either, and he proved me wrong.
Hammonds is the first to come to mind because I remember all the hype around him -- tough to live up that hype, but he never really even came close.
Ryan Minor was about as complete of a flop as I can think. Of course he really had it tough considering who he needed to replace.
Manny Alexander, Luis Matos, Chris Singleton, Chris Richards, Karim Garcia, Howie Clark, Rene Gonzales, are others name that people talked about that never were even close to be MLB players in my mind.
A position player that exceeded expectations -- has to be Cal Ripken. Seems like too easy of a choice, but wasn't Bob Bonner considered the better prospect -- and I am sure there are plenty of people going who the heck is Bob Bonner.
We have had others that have had serviceable careers, but exceeded expectations -- none that I can really think of that stick out (since the late 70's/early 80's -- I have no reference prior to that).
Players like Roberts and Markakis are what I expect from MLB players, and in the late 80's early 90's we filled a lot of holes with Free Agents by trading unproven prospects.
Mmmmm...Tabasco on pepperoni pizza...
Jeffrey Hammonds or Darnell McDonald along with Calvin Pickering going back even further Jim Fuller---all of those players were overhyped and a big diasppointment.
Brian Roberts was a pleasent surprise--I don't think anyone thought he would develope into what he has become--
Roch, plenty of disappointments to go around with position players. I’m going to go with Hammonds as the biggest disappointment. I remember on a radio show back then just before he came up the host insisting that Hammonds should come up immediately because he was “can’t miss.” I had a bad feeling when I heard that and I still do whenever I hear such words to describe a player. He definitely had the talent but couldn’t stay healthy enough to play full time.
Other disappointments include Larry Sheets, who really looked like he would be a solid hitter for awhile after that 1987 season; Craig Worthington, who ended up being another 1989 overachiever and not a future third base fixture; Leo Gomez; Juan Bell, who was supposed to be the next Cal at SS; Manny Alexander, who was supposed to be the next Cal at SS; Ryan Minor, who was supposed to be the next Cal at third; and Calvin Pickering, who I was hoping would be the next Mo Vaughn.
As for surprises, I’m going with Brian Roberts first with Brady Anderson a close second (Brady came by trade but as a prospect). When Roberts came up, I figured he’d end up being a light hitting player with speed and not be the doubles hitting machine and leadoff catalyst he’s become. As for Brady, I figured he’d remain the light hitting outfielder with good defense that he came up as. Who knew he’d become the club’s all-time single season home run hitter? Not to accuse him of anything, but the same could be said for many of his contemporaries who magically became something more.
zack said:
i'd second ryan minor. can't even remember what happened to him.
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Ryan Minor is now the hitting coach for the Delmarva Shorebirds, and from all accounts is doing a fairly good job.
What rumor, the O’s have stated before that they are unwilling to sign Cuban defectors b/c they are concerned that it will threaten "the goodwill created between the two countries." This is a quote directly from Angelos’ puppet GM Syd Thrift in 2000. Mr Thrift continued that these are the thoughts of the Orioles and of Mr. Angelos in paticular. This is indeed the policy of Angelos & the Orioles. What Oriole “official” says otherwise, Richie Bancells? If this is company policy why cannot you provide the “officials” name? I think b/c it’s the O’s blowing smoke & BS'ing you again Roch. If this is policy they should prove it & sign this stud. Stop BS'ing us & commit to winning for once.
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They're blowing smoke and BSing me again? Really? I'm sorry that I've been so gullible in the past. I wrote a "high ranking official." You think that would be the head athletic trainer? I'm glad you know what the current policy is. Please break a few stories for me and I'll see if MASN can cut you a check. - Roch
It's always easier to name disappointments since there are normally many more of those. Not to disagree with the many fine choices, or give away my age but how about Dave Nicholson. He was supposed to be the 2nd coming of Micky Mantle. The only thing he had in common with Mantle was strike outs.
Val Majewski, Bigbie, Hammonds, McDonald -- they all rank right up there as major disappointments.
Roberts is definitely one of the biggest surprises. I never envisioned him being the impact player he is today when he first came up. Totally pegged him as a utility/role player/fill in type player.
Biggest Surprise: David Segui and Brady Anderson (even though he came over by trade)
Both went from being light hitting decent fielding guys to having pretty solid careers
Biggest Disappointment: Craig Worthington
The fact that I once paid thirty bucks for his rookie card pretty much does it for me.
OK, way off topic but it does relate to the O's (in some far reaching way). DT had been bashed on this board many times during the season for his pitching moves when going to the bullpen. Last night's game just goes to show what the pitching "game" has become in MLB. Lackey is rocking and shutting out the Yanks, yes with some struggles, but he was shutting them out. Then Scioscia pulls him out. Then look at what Girardi did the other day. This is what major league pitching has come down to......specific roles and a pitch count mandate. IMO, pathetic. Lackey was pissed he got yanked and he should be. You could read his lips, "this is my game". You can say what you want about DT's pitching moves, however this is the way the game is played these days.
I haven't experienced enough success to say there is anyone that has exceeded my expectations. For the majority of the time I've been an Orioles fan we've been losers. I can't say at any point we've had anyone that has knocked my socks off other than Cal. Maybe Erik Bedard when he was mowing down everyone.
Brandon Fahey is the biggest surprise in years. Never understood how he was in the majors. Never understood how so many people excepted him with open arms. He was what we would call very un-good.
One disappointment as an Oriole would have been perhaps Eric Byrnes. Not sure how he never worked out here but then went elsewhere to have a monster season.
Glenn Davis is probably the biggest disappointment in Orioles history.
Ok, who's the clown that left the rabbit boiling on my stove? I don't even own a rabbit! Gammons swears it wasn't him, Reynolds is gone, Berman doesn't even know where I live!
Roch,
To your knowledge, who of these Cuban defectors in the past have really ever worked out and was all they were hyped to be? I mean more than just a one or two year flash in the pan. Danys Baez is one that comes to mind, but he wasn't hyped and had major league teams beating on his door like with Chapman.
As far as disappointments, there are many, Calvin Pickering comes to mind, and Sam Horn. Rich Coggins I thought should have been better. Honorable mention would be Luis Matos, Keith Reed, Ryan Minor, Val Majewski, Darnell McDonald.
Biggest surprise would be Brian Roberts, he came out of no where when everyone was high on Jerry Hairston. Doug DeCinces was another that was a pleasant surprise.
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I guess you could make arguments for Orlando and Livan Hernandez, and Jose Contreras, though they haven't dominated for long stretches. - Roch
As my good friend, the late Rex Barney would say Mark Smith. A big disapointment. My surprise would be Billy Ripken. I didn't think he would a decent utility man or a major league ball-player.
THAT'S IT!!!
I have had enough. I can't believe Mike took me out last night. I am going to a team that doesn't have a bullpen so there is no chance they will take me out with the game on the line.
Roch Said:
They're blowing smoke and BSing me again? Really? Gee, I'm sorry that I've been so gullible in the past. I wrote a "high ranking official." You think that would be the head athletic trainer? I'm glad you know what the current policy is. I guess you're closer to the team than I am. Please break a few stories for me and I'll see if MASN can cut you a check.
I say:
The O's don’t pay those who criticize them. Actually they forbid employees from even communicating with them. That’s policy as well, ask Nestor about that. I’m just calling it as I see it. They have said before they won’t sign Cuban defectors and they have never done so. There is not enough evidence to support your comments today. I believe you; I just don’t believe everything the O’s say. Why should I? I understand you’re frustrated, you have a difficult job. You have to somehow put a positive spin on a train wreck everyday.
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How many times do you want to be wrong today? I don't ever criticize them? I've been told to put a positive spin on this team? Wrong and wrong. The Orioles hadn't signed anyone from Guatemala. I guess that was also because of a policy. I'm only interested in whether they're forbidden from signing Chapman because of a policy. I'm told by someone who would know that being a Cuban defector isn't an issue. That's what I had heard from some others lower in the food chain, but figured I needed to go higher up. I'm not going to continue this debate with you. It's like talking to a wall. And I don't have the time or interest. - Roch
I'm surprised that after 40 some odd comments no one has questioned the lunacy of paying north of 50M for a guy that has never faced major league quality players on a regular basis.
I felt that paying 15.1M for Strasburg was crazy. I'll bet the Red Sox are wondering how smart it was to commit 80M to Dice K and he had a track record in the Japanese leagues.
I fell justified in critizing our FO for not spending more for player development but I would be furious if we spent 50M on one risky player. For that much money you could sign one Sano and two late drafted first round talents every year for the next ten years.
Adam Lowen deserves it.
ofahn said:
I'm surprised that after 40 some odd comments no one has questioned the lunacy of paying north of 50M for a guy that has never faced major league quality players on a regular basis.
I felt that paying 15.1M for Strasburg was crazy. I'll bet the Red Sox are wondering how smart it was to commit 80M to Dice K and he had a track record in the Japanese leagues.
I fell justified in critizing our FO for not spending more for player development but I would be furious if we spent 50M on one risky player. For that much money you could sign one Sano and two late drafted first round talents every year for the next ten years.
Ofahn:
It is crazy but its business as usual in the AL East. It has worked out before for NYY & Boston. I wish the O's would get in the game
Schoolman,
Let's look at your most gut-wrenching observation -- the talking pepperoni -- very off-putting; however, those faces fall well short of dissuading me from abandoning my pepperoni.
Biggest recent surprise: Nolan Reimold who arrived in Baltimore following a strong 2008 season at Bowie and a stronger start at Norfolk.
I don't know why, or even if it is true, but I definitely formed the impression, after Nolan was drafted, that the Orioles "soured" on him at some point.
My only guess: the Warehouse was disappointed that he lost time to injury. I think it is fair to say that humans, including baseball professionals, unconsciously develop pre-judgments about players based on small sample sizes.
Sometimes the pre-judgments are prophetic and sometimes they are forgotten in the elation over a player -- Nolan Reimold -- making the big leagues with a reasonable expectation that there is more to come with added experience.
And sometimes the pre-judgments are a thorn-in-the-side while players like Jayson Werth are hitting with power and gunning down base runners for another organization. Losing Werth may have been due to a failure of creative thinking rather than an inaccurate pre-judgment.
I agree that Jeffrey Hammonds is the poster boy for major disappointments; he must be #1, or must be in the discussion about #1.
The memory that lingers in my mind was a game when I had a front row seat -- between the screen and the dugout -- arguably as good as any location in M.S.
JH hit a triple in the right-center gap; when he made the turn at first he looked as though he was Michael Johnson in baseball spikes kicking up a rooster tail of infield dirt on his way to third base.
There was a special quality to that hit ... Hammonds demonstrated his extra-base power and his jaw-dropping running skill. He closed the deal with that hit; I was really upbeat about our future with young Hammonds in the lineup.
Dave Nicholson: the next Mickey Mantle with the raw power to lose baseballs hit out of the stadium. He came with great fanfare and with sculpted arms - immense biceps and Popeye forearms. Dave also possessed a swing-and-miss swing -- not many foul balls -- just impressive air-shattering whiffs.
As Jack attempts to say, Nada
Dave's greatest contribution was his role in bringing Little Luis Aparicio to Baltimore (Wilhelm, Hansen, Ward, and Nicholson to CWS for Luis and Al Smith, still hanging on after he lost the big game to Herbie Hoover, after a bout of depression, made his mark on America with his invention of the electric broom, which eventually provided a nickname for Baltimore's favorite slick-fielding third baseman. You could look it up.)
Cereal Blogger, you really sound alot like a guy named Jack that comments b.s. in here so much. Between you and him, I am sure national security would have a major problem with you, because you both always seem like its your right to know everything and everyone that has anything to do with the running of the Orioles. That the Orioles should just come out and discuss their business with you and get your approval. I am sure Chase Manhattan bank, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, and other big businesses call you all the time and let you in on all their activities. You and Jack should go out and find out who really killed JFK because you have a right to know.
Sure, the Orioles should have a payroll of 120 million or so, its not our money. And while the Orioles are at it, lets make tickets like Boston and the Yankees too so we can afford those players, and 8 dollars for a bag of popcorn and 15 dollars for a cup of beer, but what the hell, I have money to burn. Go ahead Orioles, spend away, its not our money.
Eventually all this spending will catch up with the Yankees and Red Sox. To me, its better to earn a World Series than to buy one.
Lackey- hysterical! We will welcome you with open arms - just not bullpen arms or international arms that are on the expensive side...
Roch, I don't buy it that you are on the same side as the FO on not signing expensive international talent given your past comments.
The Orioles can't cry financial inequity if they aren't willing to take these chances. Who saved the game for the Angels last night? Morales, a defector from Cuba, who has been worth every bit of the $4.5 mil the Angels spent on him several years ago. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/hispanicheritage2009/news/story?id=4492683
We are cheap and we don't gamble and we are going up against rich teams who spend $$$$ AND gamble. Who cares if the Orioles have a policy against signing Cubans? We won't spend on any good ones. Why do the Orioles say they are involved in things when they are not? Having mild interest in one of the hottest prospects in baseball is not going anywhere. Just say, we are passing. Period.
We will tip toe in and say "Excuse me Mr. Chapman. We were wondering if you would take a reasonable salary to play in a nice stadium. Did you know Cal Ripken use to play for us? We also played a game against the country you are leaving 10 years ago. Even though we won't add the pieces you need to be successful consistently and our ballpark and competition in the AL East will inflate your ERA making it hard to land your huge second contract, you should consider joining our team. We are not really fast, powerful, fundamentally sound, and our bullpen will squander 3-4 of your wins, but we put out a memo that we would work on it. Anyway, after saying that out loud I realize we should not have even had this conversation. Sorry for bothering you."
answers: B-Rob is a good one. I was a huge fan of Moose v.1 as well. I stumbled on this link looking for Randy Milligan stats. http://www.math.wisc.edu/~ellenber/underappreciatedorioles.html
Chris Hoiles is another good choice someone mentioned.
You all mentioned the big duds like Hammonds, Minor, Alexander, and maybe Bigbie and Majewski. It's actually sad that we hardly have many legitimate disappointments or success stories based on our horrible drafting of position players.
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I already wrote that I thought Sana was worth the money, that he wouldn't break the bank. But you also need to keep in mind, and this goes for everyone, that players aren't automatically going to come here if you pony up the bucks. They still can choose another team. - Roch
Not a lot out there as free agents. As far as the trade value goes if we packaged Felix Pie, David Hernandez, Jason Berken, Ty Wigginton
Do you think we would be able to get any of the following:
Ryan Zimmerman
Brandon Inge
Mark Reynolds
Either LaRoche
Adam Dunn
Biggest disappointment: Jim Pyburn, he was one of Paul Richards bonus babies. Been so long I can't remember what happened to him.
Biggest surprise was Mike Mussina, he was in the rotation along with the vaulted Ben McDonald and outperformed him in every way.
McDonald, Hammonds, Matos, Bigbie, Keith Reed
Roch,
I disagree with the statment you made below:
"Being more active doesn't mean overpaying to sign everybody. I just don't think they're going to go that high for a pitcher or get involved in a bidding war with the likes of NY and Boston."
Yes it does mean overpaying to sign quality when you have an industry wide reputation like the Orioles do. They are viewed as being the type of organization which "low balls" players and only seek second tier type players to fill gaps when made too. They have shown the industry they are not serious about winning now. They are putting ALL their eggs in one basket by signing players who if half make it to the parent club, they will be lucky. So in all reality, if you are serious about winning, yes you do have to show the industry by committing to these types of players by signing them. There is NO reason they cannot go out on the market and acquire the power hitter this lineup starves for or a top of the rotation type starter.
Give me one reason why they shouldn't sign these players to enhance this team if you are truly committed to winning!
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You missed the point. I'm saying the Orioles don't view being "more active" as overpaying for everyone. And it's what they think that's important. - Roch
Rich D said ****
Eventually all this spending will catch up with the Yankees and Red Sox. To me, its better to earn a World Series than to buy one.
Yes, Rich it does catch up to you. In attendance, concessions, tourism, desires of the quality players to want to come to Balt.
And oh...the nice little fancy title of World Series Champions!
Keep trying to grow every position on this team...and you will keep seeing the results that you have. We mirror the Pittsburgh Pirates!
There is a clear cut parity in how much you spend versus where you are in the standings. There is an exception here and there, but for the most part, look who is in the championship playoffs!
Roch,
Disappointment: Ryan Minor, I'm going to have to go along with the crowd on this one.
Surprise: Someone from the '89 team, maybe the whole team. Steve Finley, he didn't really excel in the minors, was promoted from AA, when he was with the Os I think everyone thought "good fourth OF".
Baldy
Roch, I too don't buy it that you are on the same side as the FO on not signing expensive international talent given your past comments. You are merely the messenger.
I do think the Orioles if given the chance, would feed you information to print or run in your blog, if it made them look good or quieted fan criticism.
What you are seeing with the increased number of fans here on the blog crying out against this comment and in general is.....they are tired of the excuses and want to see actions. They dont want to except "they didnt get back with us" any longer.
What is there excuse this year is they dont sign bullpen help, cleanup hitter or a true starter? They wont have none!
Can you blame them?
Keep up the good work!
Schoolman,
I was just rolling along, reading the comments, which is part of my daily regimen .. thinking of pithy retorts and players to add to a supplemental post .. when I came upon my old friend Cereal Blogger.
C.B. said a few things, which lifted the needle on the intelligence/appropriateness blogometer; all student posts are scanned into the software accompanying the IAB, which help me to identify posts that qualify for a response.
Cereal Blogger: Once again you are dangerously "bound," and in need of much more bran in your diet. You are usually not this angry, combative, and WRONG.
What is so difficult, after your long association with Roch, to understand that Schoolman is a veteran reporter who has sources and the good judgment to recognize the genuine article from the misleading?
The IAB has flagged these posts; they contain clues that a second person may have colluded in their formulation.
Out of several possibilities the IAB has identified Battling Bob Lancione as the most likely poster to have an influence: belligerent, suggestion that Roch lacks integrity because he is a MASN employee, and the sputtering of a person who believes he knows things that no one else knows, and loses self-control when he is challenged.
In a recent post I included both statements – one by Thrift on July 17, 2000, which C.B. emphasized and a second staement -- an article that relied heavily on quotations by Mr. Angelos -- to reshape the Orioles’ policy; to bring it in line with a more enlightened approach to improving the pool of minor league talent.
MAY 18, 2000: My guess is that there was a firestorm of criticism in reaction to the Orioles’ position on defectors.
Friday, May 19, 2000
ANGELOS: ORIOLES WOULD SIGN CUBAN DEFECTORS FOR TEAM
By George Solomon, Washington Post Staff Writer
Peter Angelos, the majority owner of the Baltimore Orioles, said yesterday that despite reports to the contrary, the team would be interested in scouting and signing Cuban defectors.
"But we would not solicit or encourage anyone to defect--rather we would discourage that," Angelos said yesterday.
But Angelos, whose team played a home-and-home series against a Cuban all-star team last year, said the Orioles eagerly scouted pitcher Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez before he signed with the New York Yankees several years ago.
"I was advised not to sign him," Angelos said. "Obviously, that was a mistake."
Angelos said that if a Cuban player were to defect and was a prospect, "He would be judged on his own merit, without political implications."
Ed Rogers: Wasn't he supposed to be our A-Rod? Ole Syd spun something about this guy to the press and they ate it up.
Jack: Could not agree more with you. Until the Front Office stops letting the fruit grow the vine and starts signing decent veterans to supplement the up and coming rookies, this team will continue to be a 4th or 5th place joke.
One of these years we'll overtake Toronto or Tampa for 4th and Andrew will spin a bunch of BS to the press and fans about how "PROGRESS IS BEING MADE!"
Jeffery Hammonds, didn't Eddie Murphy play him in a movie once?
Hammonds or Darnell MacDonald are the biggest disappointments I can remember, with Minor as a honorable mention. Both Hammonds and MacDonald were "5 tool players". Guess some stole there tool boxes.
I have to agree with Cal Ripken as the biggest surprise. I don't think to many people thought he would be that good. Brob was a nice surprise also.
Fair comments Roch and I agree that the O's are not playing on a level playing field. I thought they showed guts and a willingness to spend with Wieters and then Matusz, but I fear we are drifting into penny-pincher mode. We need to step up and overspend on some isolated targets. I am not talented enough to isolate those targets but it is clear that this is not the M.O. of this front office.
I agree more with Jack than RichD. To think that karma or overspending will inhibit future performance of the Yankees or Red Sox is absurd in today's sports market. You have to pay to play. The poor suffering Yankees have spent their way into the playoffs for all but one season in the last 14 years. When will it catch up to them- 2038?
They spend- create a better product- consumers spend and revitalize the coffers. Please don't cry poverty! Watch the game on tv. The Orioles give away tickets for a dollar and no one goes. With a good team they could charge $30-50 and people would pay *for a winning team*. Baltimoreans spend truckloads on the Ravens (albeit on a shorter schedule). There will still be 12-15 dollar seats. I don't want our team to suck so that I can get cheap seats. Go to a minor league game. That whole self-righteous, "I would rather not buy a championship" was lost a long time ago in part BECAUSE of our beloved Orioles in the mid-90's.
Roberts ,Wyerth, and Finley for best.
Alexander, Hammonds, Horn for disapointing.
Cereal Blogger said:
blah blah blah
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Roch replied: They're blowing smoke and BSing me again? Really? I'm sorry that I've been so gullible in the past. I wrote a "high ranking official." You think that would be the head athletic trainer? I'm glad you know what the current policy is. Please break a few stories for me and I'll see if MASN can cut you a check. - Roch
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I say: ZINGGGGGG!!!!!!!!! Way to take off the kid gloves and call it like it is. CB is a clueless donkey spewing nonsense and you called him out for it. Good for you Roch.
On a related note (because I am a self-admitted clueless donkey), my biggest disappointment might be met with mixed reaction. I am throwing the Otter under the bus. Granted we got a good 5 years and 150+ saves out of Olson. However, when you spend a 1st rd pick on a pitcher (top 5 if I remember correctly), I think you need to plan on him being in the organization a lot longer than that. It seemed like he came up, had a few great seasons and flamed out with the arm injury.
Again, it may not be a popular pick but when you look at what could have been, it is kind of dissappointing. I liked Olson and thought he personified the Orioles of the WhyNot years (89-93).
A good question for tomorrow could be "With the short shelf life of most closers, what is the highest round that an organization should entertain the thought of draft a true 'relief pitcher/closer'".
Did anyone mention Juan bell in the dissapoint category? We only traded one of the two greatest switch jitters of all time for him so big things were expected.
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I'm five minutes away from filing an entry that includes Bell on my list. - Roch
Ok, I have narrowed it down to Olbermann or Olney. One of them set me up! Van Pelt told me Olbermann was always jealous of Reynolds & me. Olney says all the hos showed up after that dork Olbermann left. How can a guy that lives with his mother really think the PA's would want to be with him? It's easier to get around a wife than a mother.
Despite the fact that I continue to be a fan of the Baltimore Orioles even after years and years of futility, I do not believe that my fandom bestows upon me some right to have a say in how the Baltimore Orioles are run, how they spend their money, and what decisions they make internally. The Orioles are not a government entity subject to FOIA. They are just a company that makes money by hiring guys to entertain us. Sport for money's sake. It's the mix of competition, sport, and money that gets people to invest so heavily on an emotional and financial basis in their team of choice. It's really a great business to be in, because people become psychologically (and sometimes physiologically) attached to their sports teams.
The Orioles have made a policy decision to put the best product out there for their customers, based on their finances and, dare I say it, their "PROFIT/LOSS STATEMENT". They're a business. Of course this is what they do. To say otherwise is to ignore the reality of the situation. A lot goes into business decisions that the customers never see. I'm a lawyer for big multinational companies and regularly help them make decisions that affect their products and thousands of employees and customers. Trust me, a lot of discussion, consideration, and expense goes into deciding how best to deliver the best product possible, at the lowest cost, at the highest profit, and in compliance with the law.
At the end of the day, the Orioles only owe explanations to one group of people: the syndicate of owners who have interests in the underlying entity that owns the Baltimore Orioles. They don't owe you anything. "But I bought, season tickets" you scream, or "I've been buying Ripken jerseys for 15 years" you moan. So? You've been buying cheeseburgers from McDonald's for your entire life... does that mean McDonald's owes you an explanation when they decide to only put one slice of cheese on their $1 double? Nope. They owe you nothing. They only owe their shareholders.
I'm sorry for the length of this screed, but today I decided I was tired of hearing all of the demands and threats from disgruntled fans. If you're tired of the product, stop buying it. The product doesn't owe you anything. I want the Orioles to be better as much as anybody...but I am unwilling to ignore the reality of the business world and to justify irrational behavior because this product means something to me on an emotional level. Anytime you tie your emotions into something someone else owns, be prepared for disappointment.
Roch--I rarely post, but wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for all of the work you put into this blog. I know it's your job and it's what you're paid to do, but you clearly care about it enough to do the job well, and I think we all appreciate it.
Whoever above said Mike Mussina didn't live up to expectations is out of their mind. Yes he was a first-round pick, and he is going to the Hall of Fame. Not a big game pitcher??? I suggest you review his performance in the 1997 ALCS: 2 starts, 15 IP, 1 ER, 4 BB, and 25 Ks.
Rarely, if ever has there been a classroom with more BS piled high in the middle of the room. The Yankees owner is richer than PA. The Yankees stadium is larger, market is larger, revenues are larger, tradition is greater. No matter what number we budget for our spending, no matter how far over budget we go, we cannot outspend the Yankeees. Trying to do so gives us a more expensive team that still cant beat them. They can make huge risky signings because if they fail, they buy them out and move on. If we sign someone to a huge contract and they fail, it cripples us going forward (how long did the Belle contract hinder us?). This Cuban kid supposedly never dominated the top Cuban or international competition so what makes him remotely worth the money being mentioned in connection with him? He obviously needs a couple years in the minors to have any chance of success in the majors and if this board is representative, the great unwashed ignorant masses of Oriole fans would be demanding he immediately be installed as opening day starter. This class is just chock full of widdle kids whose mommies don't love them and want change for change's sake and spending for spending's sake just to prove that PA and AM love them.
Nestor said:
Give me one reason why they shouldn't sign these players to enhance this team if you are truly committed to winning!
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Financial responsibility. It's a shame when you get criticized for not being as financially stupid as your peers.
Case in point #1: Last year, the Braves gave Derek Lowe, one of the top available FA pitchers, a 4 yr/$60 MM contract. The Braves gave him that contract because they thought they needed him and that someone else was going to outbid them for his services. One year later, they are trying to dump him and his contract because they found out that he's not worth it and they have limited payroll flexibility because of it.
Case in point #2: Last year, the Cubs gave Milton Bradley, a volatile but exceptionally gifted offensive player, a 3 yr/$30 MM contract. The Cubs gave him that because they thought his offense would be what would take them to the World Series. One year later, well, you know what happened this season, and now they are looking to offload him as quickly as possible.
I, for one, am glad that the O's have realized that just because a player is asking for an unrealistic amount of money doesn't mean that you have to give it to him, and that there is an opportunity cost for every free agent you sign.
The biggest disappointment about Hammonds is that the team passed on a HS SS named Jeter because of their preference for a college player.
Glenn Davis on the downside. Kurt Schilling as the outperformer, even though it wasn't with the Orioles (well, OK, he is a position player, but others took MacDonald, so I'll take Schilling). See
http://www.oriole.net/windy/almanac/baseball/50th/swap/index.htm
for details.
Calvin Pickering
S’Os,
I can teach you a neat trick using HTML tags, that will enable you to use all bold caps. Then you will be able to shout with greater volume and
conviction, "I WANT TO WIN," as if no one else on this blog wants to win -- it's what seeps out of our brain that separates one student from another, not a phony metric to measure a student’s opinions by how much that student wants to win. “Arrogant” is just one word that comes to mind to describe your position.
You said Finley was a disappointment, and even Mike Mussina did not meet expectations to which I replied that you are hard to please.
And your explanation is, "I want to win."
There is such a tenuous connection between your evaluations of Finley and Moose and your desire to win that it would be kind to call your desire to win a non-sequitor.
Your shouting does not put you, or anyone else who harps on the negatives, in a preferred class of people who sincerely want to win, while the rest of us are merely pretenders when it comes to our desire to win -- amateurs, betrayed by our more reasonable approach to expressing our views.
Your take on Finley and Mussina, in my opinion, reveals a distorted view:
1. In 1990, Finley* started 110 games, Brady 55. You’re a better fan than I am if you know that Houston wanted Brady, but we insisted they take Finley because Brady was untouchable; of course, that was not the situation.
2. I don’t know what to say in the face of your twisted evaluation of Mussina; it sounds a little like a couple that split up, citing irreconcilable differences -- he left, I stayed; he wanted the money, I wanted him to stay -- and I will never vote for him to enter the HOF.
*Do any other students recall 1990 when Oriole outfielders -- I remember especially Joe Orsulak, Mike Devereaux, and Steve Finley -- performed a high-wire act, diving and wall-scaling, home run-robbing catches. (The oldest was probably the one who set an example for the others; Orsulak hit the turf, often nose-first, as soon as he put on an Orioles uniform and never stopped.) Our outfielders were dare-devils, flying without a safety net, and immensely entertaining.
Schoolman: Was our outfield defense impressive when viewed from your catbird seat in the press box, or were you elsewhere most nights until ‘97?
SPOILER ALERT: READ THE FOLLOWING AT YOUR RISK ONLY. SOR WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR LOSS OF BRAIN CELLS OR NEW FROWN LINES:
SHERNORIOLES said:
jackdunn'sbaby--Steve Finley was not the player in Baltimore, that Houston saw. Same as Schilling. It was between Finley and Brady Anderson. Brady won out. Mussina never was a big game pitcher. If the O's scored 1 run, he give up 2. The only game that I thought he was close to being a big game pitcher, was the first game against Randy Johnson in the 1997 divisional series. His very first game in 1991, he lost to the White Sox 1-0. What did he do for the Yankees? Where's his World Series ring? The same thing it would have been, if he had stayed with the O's. Don't get me wrong, Moose was my favorite Oriole until he left to go to the Yankees. As he said, "to get a World Series Ring." But, we all know it was $. He never won a Cy young award and all his talent. Mussina, to me was a disappointment in the way he performed and how he left the Orioles. The team that drafted him and to our #1 rivals. As far as negotiations goes, I remember Angelos meeting him and having lunch with him and talking contract. The money offered was not that much different. But, it was not good enough. As far as being hard to please, that is funny. I WANT TO WIN. That should be what every O's fan would want.