More from Bergy
I can't guarantee that Brad Bergesen will build on his rookie success next year, but I know he'll head into spring training with the proper attitude. And that puts the odds in his favor.
"I feel so blessed," he said. "I had no idea what to expect or what it would take to stay there. My mindset was just to go in there and hold on for dear life. To be able to stay there and get that experience was huge.
"My mindset going into next season is the same as last season. I don't want to think at all that I'm owed the job or have it waiting for me. I want to go in like I always do and earn it."
Perfect.
Not that I'm surprised. Bergesen seems to "get it" like so many other young players on this team.
Bergesen said he usually starts throwing in early December, doing some light tossing "just to get a feel for it again." He'll report to spring training two months later with the other pitchers, unsure how many new faces will be waiting for him.
When I asked Bergesen whether he agreed that the Orioles need to sign a veteran starter, he stole my answer.
"I never like to play GM," he said.
"I don't even know the guys they're talk about. But the guys we have now, I'm good friends with and think they'll all be great pitchers. But I don't care what team it is, if you get a No. 1-type pitcher, it can only help you. I'm not going against anyone in the organization, but you'd be hard-pressed to say that any team wouldn't want that."
That's it. I've drained every word from my Bergesen phone interview. Hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed bringing it to you.
Here's my question for today:
Which young pitcher in Orioles history surprised you the most by being much better in the majors than you anticipated, and which one was the biggest disappointment because he never met your high expectations for him?
Does that count as two questions?
Oh great, I've asked another. We're up to three.
I'll submit my answer for the second part. I thought Matt Riley, despite being such a free spirit, would have a tremendous career. And I often use him as an example when I point out how other young pitchers "get it." Unfortunately, he didn't, at least not right away. And injuries took care of the rest.
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Categories (click for archive)Roch Kubatko | Roch Kubatko Orioles |
How about Dave McNally for most pleasant surprise and Ben McDonald for biggest bust, especially relative to the hype we all heard about him.
Good Morning Roch,
Thanks for bringing the interview to us. Bergy is a quality pitcher and person. He will make Andrew really proud with comments like
"I never like to play GM," he said.
Probably pitcher who floundered the worst was Dave Johnson while in the organization.
Now to who turned out to be the worst pitcher, hands down Matt Riley.
I don't remember where Curt Shilling came from, but when he started for the O's, I knew he was bound for stardom and I was not in favor of the Glen Davis trade even though Davis was a big time hitter with the Astros.
I guess one of the biggest busts to me was Adam Loewen. He was a sure thing, but I hope he makes it with the Blue Jays.
Biggest disappointment? I know Ponson will get a lot of votes but I'd lean towards Ben McDonald, only because so much more was expected from him. He was supposed to be the horse of the staff for 15 years but injuries robbed him of the chance. Storm Davis and Daniel Cabrera were other disappointments for me.
Biggest surprise? That was harder for me to answer than I first suspected. Seems like there have been more disappointments than surprises but I suspect that's true for every organization. I think Mike Flanagan would have to be right up there. Yes, he was a highly touted prospect but 141 career wins as an Oriole is more than what a lot of fans would have initially predicted.
...Big Surprise...
Cla Meredith
I expected good stuff from Bergesen, Matusz and Tillman. Cla seems to fill that Chad Bradford role and generally was the reliable person in the bullpen.
...Big Diappointment...
Rad Liz
So many disappointments to choose from but he is the youngest of the disappointments. Berken and Hernandez while disappointing should still be able to work on their stuff and get back up. I am not too concerned about them.
On a side note... did anyone catch Frank Robinson at the Angels game? Was he taking notes for a bench coach position with the Orioles?
Easy one: Mike Mussina and Daniel Cabrera (I was going to put Ben McDonald, but to be fair to him, he did end up winning a few games, and most, if not all pitchers taken with the #1 overall pick, never pan out).
I mean, the answer to the 2nd part of your question could be any pitcher the O's org has drafted from about 1998 to 2007. Cabrera, Olson, Liz, Riley, Bedard (due to the injury bug), and several others that have been promised as future number 1's that have all the potential in the world.
Sure, I think a lot of it had to do with the development strategies used on some of these guys, like bringing Cabrera up way too early, but how many different guys have been run through here and have been thought of as "franchise saviors"?
On the other hand, I would go with Bergesen, simply due to lack of knowledge about the history of O's prospects before 2005. I'm sure there are others out there, but to me it seems like Bergy came out of nowhere. I picture him as a Mark Beurhle type pitcher--not overwhelming stuff, but great location, smart,and high tempo. And Beurhle has had a pretty successful career; some would even say the HOF is in his future.
And another note, how bout them baby Birds? I've said this before, and will say it again, I think Bell and Snyder need to start the season in the majors. I know AFL stats are different than other leagues, but I think they are legit. Sure, we will take our bumps and bruises with them at the corners, but I think an improved pitching staff, along with a more experienced crop of position players (Reimold, Wieters, Jones and Pie), will prove to be the X factor in whether or not this team wins more games next year. I'd rather get better bullpen help (which will help out the team more than people think) than spend loads of $$$ on a lackluster, overrated, overhyped FA first basemen. That money will be needed in the future for contract extensions for all of these guys.
Ben McDonald was my biggest disappointment--I really expected great things from him being the #1 pick and as highly touted as he was prior to the draft
Career wise I would have to say Jamie Moyer is my biggest surprise--I know he didn't accumulate all his wins as an Oriole but I don't think anyone would have predicted his success with the stuff he has.
Not sure about part one of the question, but for part two I am going to go with Brian Burress. I thought he had more in him that what ever came out.
Mike Boddicker was the biggest major league surprise for me. (Kind of a Bergesen-type pitcher, wasn't he?)
Either Matt Riley or Ben McDonald would have to be the biggest bust. While McDonald certainly had some success, he never fulfilled the incredibly high expectations that were set for him. Riley was a complete flame out, but truthfully, I never personally expected much from him because, as you said, he didn't "get it." Hard to keep Daniel Cabrera off this list as well. Heck, when it comes to the O's, the biggest disappointment list is a lot longer than the biggest surprise ... very disappointing indeed.
Daniel Cabrera and...well...I can't think of one for the other.
Hi Roch,
For me, the most disappointing young pitcher is a toss-up between Daniel Cabrera and Hayden Penn.
Hello Roch and schoolmates -
1. Overperformers:
Scott McGregor, for sure. Watching him strike Reggie out on a regular basis with his 83 mph fastball was surreal. Dave Johnson, stepped up big for a short period, too. And I don't think anyone expected Elrod to go into the books with a 0.00 era either.
2. Underperformers:
Ben MacDonald wins in a landslide. Storm Davis gets a few votes, but at least CyClone had a few strong months before sliding into obscurity.
3. Ruling on third question:
Yes, that counts.
Sidetrack tossup question: While many of us hate the unbalanced payrolls, ridiculous post-season schedule and many other things about today's game, the best shut-down argument on the other side is the tripled revenue the game brings in since 1995. Is it fair, reasonable or logical to use any other criteria than total revenue performance to assess the health of the game? Here are a few criteria that get ignored when folks use total revenues to prove that the game is not broken:
- Number of fans under 21 years old / average age of fan
- Actual turnstile attendance (vs. ticket sales to corporations)
- TV ratings for total viewers (rather than ad revenues)
- Number of recreation league players under 16 years old.
- Total revenues and other measures for bottom half of teams over time.
It seems to me that, even if you look at it as "just a business", the indicators above would point to long-term health or problems versus the very short term focus of recent revenues.
I think that one of the reasons Riley didn't "get it" was because he was brought up as a 19 year old by Ray Miller, desperate to go .500 and save his job. So, Riley at age 19 gets his ego stroked and feels entitled to be a major leaguer, and it killed him professionally.
In terms of people I thought would do better than they did, I always thought that Josh Towers would be better. He never walked anyone, worked quickly, always went at the hitters (sound like anyone Roch interviewed recently)? I felt like he'd be the next edition of Bob Tewksbury, but Towers couldn't keep the HRs down to a reasonable rate and he seemed to have an "it wasn't my fault" attitude when things went sour.
In terms of people who did better than I thought, I really never thought BJ Ryan would be as good as he was for the length of time that he was. Pitchers with such out of sync mechanics never seem to be good for extended periods of time, and I thought he got more out of his delivery for longer than he should have. I was never a believer in him as a closer for that reason. But, he had a great deal of success and as an O's fan I was happy for that. I'm sorry he got hurt and with as good as Mike Griffin's reputation has become I wonder if he signed with us as a minor league FA and spent some time with him that Ryan would be able to reclaim his command and velocity enough to be helpful.
Storm Davis was the pitcher that disappointed me the most.
Roch,
Surprise: Josh Towers, he has hung around a lot longer than I expected.
Disappointment: Daniel Cabrera.
Baldy
PS What are your choices?
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I listed Riley as my biggest disappointment, though I easily could have chosen Loewen, McDonald, Penn...sadly it's a long list. Haven't decided on my biggest surprise, but Towers is a good one. - Roch
Answers to 3 questions:
1. Mike Boddicker - never would have expected with his stuff and build compared with his peers of that era that the Iowa boy would have put up the numbers he accomplished.
2. Ben McDonald - what high expectations for the early 1st rounder from LSU. Wrestling aligators in the off-season was just a symptom of the imaturity.
3. Yes. :)
Soooo many disappointments...let me count:
1) Ponson
2) Loewen
3) Riley
4) Liz
5) That guy that we got from the Braves back during the fire sale that pitched one inning for us, and who was supposed to be the next coming of Jesus
6) Rodrigo Lopez - He was pretty good, but I thought he'd be a long term solution for us, not the burn out he became
7) Armando Benitez - while he was an Oriole - those losses in the playoffs were heart breaking
8) Mike Timlin - I know he wasn't a young one, but boy he stunk it up while he was on the team
and the list goes on....
As for folks that have been impressive, Brad Bergesen has to be at the top of the list. He wasn't hyped like the calvary has been, and was our best pitcher last year. I hope he can repeat. Also I know Rodrigo was on my disappointing list, but his first year up, he was lights out which I dont think many expected that.
Re: Matt Riley - so much for that 24K arm.
First question number one, pick any of the O's rookies that came up this year and did outstanding jobs.
Second question- Ben McDonald comes to mind.
If we weren't talking about just pitchers, I'd throw Jeffery Hammonds in the mix as well for the latter.
Disappointments: Alan Ramirez, Jesse Jefferson, Hayden Penn
Pleasant Surprises: Dave McNally (not the best stuff, but great instincts and heart); Eddie Watt (never had "starters" stuff, but turned into a solid relief pitcher).
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Wow. This is officially the first time I've thought about Jesse Jefferson since...ok, forever. Thanks. That was fun. - Roch
Roch,
Glad you liked the link! It was on a flight to Puerto Rico this weekend when I came across your alternate career boldly advertised in Sky Mall magazine. I did a double take when I recognized you dressed in dark leather, giving the camera your best Ricky Martin.
Apparently this guy, Ricardo Arjona, is a big deal. Who'd have thought your latin twin could be adored by millions of people, win a Grammy in 2007, and you not even know he exists?
BTW--I really think your should grow your hair out.
For your continued enjoyment: http://images.google.com/images?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=ricardo%20arjona&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Curt Schilling is my answer to the first question, and Ben McDonald to the second. Got a feeling that JJ could be a future candidate for the "exceeds expectations" category if he gets the chance.to start
Disappointments:
Adam Loewen
Daniel Cabrera
Sidney Ponson
Ben McDonald
This list can go on & on & on....
Surprise:
Mike Mussina
Brad Bergeson
Both Boddicker and Flanagan exceeded expectations. And Bergeson could be on his way, based on 1/2 year of work. Besides Riley, both Dalkowski and DCab seemed to have a great upside and never got there.
I think I'm in the boat with most people on the disappointment. Daniel Cabrera looked so good the first few times I saw him pitch. He was big and dominating and if I remember right his first game was like a two-hitter. He'd show flashes all the time and well... we all know how he turned out...
Even though he wasn't an Oriole when he became a possible HOFer, Curt Schilling blows my mind. He was fairly average as a young pitcher with the O's with ERA's in the high 4's, low 5's and leaves and becomes dominant. Just another one the O's let get away I guess.
Roch, what are the odds the Blue Jays let Halliday go to a division foe? Not like he'd play for the O's, but there are a couple other teams that tend to pursue guys like that in our division.
Kyle
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I'm sure the Jays would prefer not having to face him that often, but I haven't read anything about them refusing to trade within the division. - Roch
The list for biggest disappointments is long...Matt Riley, Rick Bauer, Adam Lowen, Hayden Penn, Garrett Olsen, Jose and Danny Bautista (I think they both were hyped), Sir Sidney, Kurt Ainsworth, Jason Johnson, Steve Belcher (just because of the tragic death that did not need to happen), heck even D-Cab. One could really go on with this list...
In the end though, I think it has to be Ben McDonald. Guy was suppose to be a super-star and ended up a short term journeyman pitcher.
As for the biggest surprise -- Bergesen comes to mind right away (okay a bit premature)!
Mike Boddicker love to have a couple of guys could pitch like him in our starting rotation -- Decent ERA, pitch lots of innings...not over powering, but complemented the staff well.
Gregg Olsen proved to be everything he was touted to be...remember him as a pitcher in high school in Omaha, and thought wouldn't it be cool if the Orioles could get him. Then he went to Auburn and yet still ended up with the Orioles. I know he was hyped, but in the era he played, I think he exceeded expectation...and he had a nastiest, knee buckling curve ball.
Curt Shilling and Pete Harnish -- oh never mind, that was not while they played for us...that trade still hurts.
Maybe Jim Palmer...can you really even expect a player to win 20+ games 8 times? And not to give up a grand slam HR (until an ill-fated comeback)? You would love to have pitcher like that, but I don't think you could even expect that.
The Orioles are full of minor league pitchers who never panned out for one reason or the other. Where do we begin.
Roch,
I am coming out of retirement, it is official.
You can run with this story! I look forward to being one of your daily members who contribute to this blog!
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Favre, Seau and you. I love when the greats return. - Roch
Roch, there are many disappointments for the O’s in terms of pitching (this means I have many answers). The last ten years have been stacked with one after another. I have to agree that Matt Riley was a huge one. Ben McDonald was disappointing too, but he wasn’t terrible and would’ve had a decent career if not for injuries. For McDonald, anything short of being the next Jim Palmer was going to be disappointing. Dennis Martinez in his Orioles years was disappointing as well, as was Jose Mesa. Arthur Rhodes as a starter too.
As for those better than expected, it’s hard finding any that were only better for one to three years and not the long haul. Mike Boddicker in 1983 and 1984, Jeremy Guthrie (before this season), Jeff Ballard and Bob Milacki in 1989, Rodrigo Lopez in 2002 and 2005, and BJ Ryan.
For me, the top of the list is Steve Stone’s magical season in 1980, even though he wasn’t young, was signed as a free agent, and that season was about the end of his career. Who would’ve expected 25 wins and a Cy Young from him?
OK Roch, I'll take a stab.
Most surprising to me, Palmer. What he did in the mid 70's was off the hook. He had the talent, just didn't think he would get to that point. Most disappointing, at least in this era, Cabrera. DC had all the talent to be a dominate pitcher in the majors and he is still struggling to figure it out. Raw talent, can't convert ='s no results. Darn, he's got the arm but what a disappointment.
I think Brad fits the bill perfectly for a pitcher who was a huge surprise. I dont think anyone could have predicted 12 straight quality starts (was it?) during his rookie season. We also shouldnt forget how surprised we were with Guthrie the first two years. He went from waiver claim to our best pitcher over night.
As far as disappointments, I think that award needs to go to the super Hyped Ben McDonald.
Biggest Surprise: Jeff Ballard (18 wins, 215 IP, 6th in vote for Cy Award in 1989). He really came out of nowhere to win that many games and never repeated.
biggest disappointment: I would have picked Jeff Ballard but Daniel Cabrera has him beat. He had all the tools except the instincts to pitch. Met him at Fanfest and he was a very nice man to my family and little boy. I thought it was such a shame he did not work out in the Majors.
I would hope that everyone remembers that Riley and McDonald were the products of a system that demanded instant results. Riley might have been the success we thought he was going to be if he had not been pushed into a situation where he could not handle. He was a child asked to be an adult much too soon.
McDonald was ruined before he arrived by a college coach who wanted to to win the NCAA championship. He was ill used by LSU and it damaged him. Those who think that McPhail is to slow to bring kids up to the majors should think on those two young men.
Does someone that never made it out of the minors count for a disappointment? I remember watching Mike Paradis at Clemson, and when we drafted him, I really thought he would be a solid middle of the rotation guy. A career ERA of over 5 in the minors pretty much squashed that.
Denny Bautista was a big time bust too. A lot of people were upset when he was traded for Jason Grimsley. That sure turned out to be a winner for both sides.
Even though Arthur Rhodes turned out to be an excellent reliever, I always felt he had the ability to be a dominant lefty starting pitcher. Also, Bob Milacki, based on his minor league career, and what he did in 1989, was always a favorite and I expected him to be a real horse for a long time. It was fun to watch him pitch.
Who would have thunk Jeff Ballard would be so good for one season? How did Jose Mercedes win 14 games in 2000? How did Dave Johnson win 13 in 1990? All very surprising... too bad they couldn't replicate...
Sadly, over the last decade i have more answers for your second question.
First question is Bergesen, then Guthrie.
Second question is Rocky Coppinger, Jason Johnson, Sidney Ponson, Liz, Olson, Daniel Cabrera and the infamous Hayden Penn. Lowen doesn't count because of the injury. I believe he would have been great.
That was two questions, but as they were related, it works.
Can we start getting excited about Josh Bell yet?
Boddicker exceeded my expectations the most, because crafty righties (unlike crafty lefties) usually end up in middle relief.
Storm Davis was the most disappointing, because there was no physical reason for him to fail. He had the stuff and command to succeed at the highest level -- that's why they called him Cy Future -- he just seemed to not have the makeup for it.
Disappointments:
How about almost every pitcher drafted by Syd Thrift from 2000-2002?
How could we ever forget about Rocky Coppinger?
2002: Adam Loewen (first round), Hayden Penn (fifth), John Maine (sixth), Paul Henry (seventh), Trevor Caughey (ninth), Matthew Bolander (10th), Mark McCormick (11th), Matthew Rohr (14th), Carl Makowsky (18th), Michael Patitucci (19th), Stephen Sutton (22nd), Jason Cierlik (23rd), Melvin Spivey (30th), Justin Nash (31st), Ryan Childs (33rd), Nicholas McCurdy (35), Jordan Compton (36th), Russell Petrick (37th), Henry Lozado (39th), Steven Guerra (40th), Barry Roe (42nd), James Cooney (45th), David Mittelberger (46th), Lawrence Ponder (50th).
2001: Christopher Smith (first round), David Crouthers (third), Rommie Lewis (fourth) Jim Johnson (fifth), Joe Coppinger (seventh), Chris Britton (eighth), Talmadge Mincey (12th), Richard Salazar (13th), Cory Morris (15th), Michael Edwards (16th), Jim Tiller (17th), Trevor Caughey (18th), Andrew Perkins (20th), Adam Larson (22nd), Josh Potter (23rd), Brent Burger (26th), Adam Dunavant (28th), Kyle Schmidt (29th), Evan Seibly (31st), Josh Wilkening (35th), Jeffrey Montani (36th), Dwayne Carter (37th), Sean Letsinger (38th), Eric Blevins (41st), Josh Palm (42nd), Doug Brubaker (44th), Tabor Wooland (45th), Jonathon Fowler (46th), Anthony Cupps (47th), Bryan Johnson (48th), Oscar Serrato (49th).
2000: Beau Hale (first round), Richard Bartlett (third), Jon Skaggs (fourth), Larry Spillers (sixth), Jayme Sperring (eighth), Casey Cahill (10th), Darren Heal (11th), Ryan Keefer (13th), Brian Forystek (14th), Sidney Jones (16th), Joel Crump (17th), Kyle Sleeth (18th), Ryan Mask (20th), Fraser Dizard (21st), Aaron Bouie (22nd), Eric Walsh (23rd), Jeff Petersen (25th), Daniel Marchetti (26th), Scott Koffman (27th), Robert Cheatwood (28th), Davie Morrow (29th), Kurt Birkins (33rd), Josh Banks (34th), Tim Stauffer (36th), Eric Fagan (42nd).
That list depressed me so much that I can't think of any positives at the moment.
Just for the sake of naming someone different, what about that pitcher we had who always wanted to be traded to the Reds? His name was Pennington or something like that. Brad Pennington? Not sure. I remember reading a Sun article about baseball uniforms in the early 1990s and he was quoted numerous times about how great the Reds uniforms were. Reds Reds Reds more than once. And then we traded him to the Reds. Where he disappeared into mediocrity or worse. Can't say I thought he'd be great but for some odd reason I still remember his Reds obsession.
Over-Mike Boddicker
Under-Mike Adamson (look him up), Dave Ford
Surprise? How about Mike Boddicker? Comes up as a rookie and outpitches the Cy Youngs on the roster. No way we get to let alone win the WS in 83 without him. And then we traded him for Schilling and Brady...If only we had a mulligan on the Glenn Davis trade.... :(
Negative? Hard to say McDonald since he was good when he pitched. Riley, Loewen, Beau Hale are all on that list. But I think Jeff Ballard would be at the top of the list. After a decent rookie year during the 1988 debacle, he really pitched well in 1989 and I thought we had Scotty McGregor Jr. Dont know what happened in 1990, but he went downhill as fast as I've ever seen a player.
For me Jesse Jefferson & Rico Petrocelli go hand in hand.
To me D Cab was the biggest dissapointment. six shut out innings @ Chicago in his first start and 3rd in ROY voting that year.
I'd go with Brad Bergeson for suprise. Its early but...
rocky coppinger...never met a cream puff he didn't like.
Surprise: I'd go with Ropez. Put together a few solid years on a bad team.
Disappointment: I have to say Cabrera. While there were many others (Riley, Loewen, Penn are all great examples) who never lived up to expectations due to unfortunate injuries, Cabrera was more or less always healthy. He had a great fastball and at times showed flashes of dominance like the time he 2-hit the Yankees. But his issues were all mental and he never was able to find control. Yet because his stuff was so good, year after year everyone hoped he could find it and become the pitcher we all saw he could be. And every year he was out there pitching and rarely missing starts (unlike the other guys who spent much time on the DL), but just never figured it out.
Biggest surprise: Brad Bergesen
Biggest disappointment: Hayden Penn
Better than anticipated: Allan Mills and Arthur Rhodes. Neither great pitchers in their own right, but I always took their better than average performance for many years for granted until they departed. Then I realized how valuable they were. Olsen and Myers were lights out. Expectations were high for Myers, but evidently not high enough.
Worst than anticipated: Terry Matthews. I anticipated terrible, but his performances were always worse. I think I went to a dozen games one season where every time he coughed up the lead. It was like watching a quarterback telegraph interception after interception. Or some TV show where the audience knew the star was marching into some avoidable, uncomfortable disaster. Or Lord Cardigan designing the charge of the Light Brigade. Our entire section of the stadium would groan, as Matthews was summoned from the 'pen. Hate to say this, but he never failed to disappoint.
Roll Tide!
Surprised:
Jamie Moyer - Had a steller career after leaving Baltimore.
Mike Boddicker - Striking out Rod Carew with his ("Little Leaguer") velocity. Those were Rod's words, not mine.
Dennis Martinez- Let's face it, he was washed up by 1984 and had an unbelievable turn around.
Dissapointments:
Ben McDonald - Hate to say it. Wish he could have worked his way through the minors.
Ken Dixon - The next Doc Godding?
Adam Lowen - I agree with BMS, every pitcher drafted by Syd Thrift should be on the list. The Man actually thought the Orioles had a prospect named Gary Del'Abate.
Rocky Coppinger. He showed potential when he was able to contribute at a young age to a decent club. Then he forgot about training (influence of the vets?) and he never progressed. I loved rooking for Rocky and am disappointed he never panned out.
As has been said though pretty much every oriole pitching prospect has underperformed.
Overperformed? I think Rodrigo Lopez gave us much more than we ever dreamt or expected from a pitcher out of the Mexican League.
I totally forgot Rocky Coppinger existed until I looked at the list BMS posted.
Oh, Rocky. You stole our hearts.
Many posters have cited their biggest disappointments, so I'll concentrate on my most pleasant surprise. I nominate one four-headed beast - Cuellar/Dobson/McNally/Palmer. With them, the Orioles became the first club to have four 20-game winners. It was not their talent that surprised me. That they were able to accomplish this while occasionally wearing all-orange uniforms amazes me. How anyone kept their concentration and dignity wearing such a uniform is beyond me. So congrats to the four-headed beast and kudos to the fans who had to look into the sun for an entire ballgame without going blind.(While we're at it, let's give some love to the catchers who had to track a ball from a blaze-orange pitcher.)
I agree with Baron that this task is not as easy as it sounds. I think you have to include injuries and guys who developed post-Orioles in the disappointment category. The original Big Ben as many have noted was very disappointing because of the Wieters-esque reputation. I never expected much from Riley. A good head is necessary but not sufficient to be a very good MLB pitcher. The Riley-Ainsworth era was about the time I had the heaviest doubts abou the Oriole's player development inner workings and PR smokescreens. Both are much improved but that time period was an absolute joke.
Adam Loewen has to be number one with a bullet for me. He was a sure-fire, intelligent hard-working star in the making. He shut down an all-star USA team. Then his command never really came around. Then he got hurt. Then he got hurt again. Then he turns his back on the team that allowed him to rehab on their dime. Shameful.
Positive: Lopez is tricky because he wasn't great but got lots of opportunites and was respectable because of the shortcomings of the rest of the team. But he did win double-digits a lot and came from Mexican league obscurity. Remember- we had one player win 10 games this season and no one else above 7- that's sick in a bad way.
I will give Mike Mussina the nod because I expected him to be really good but he was great, and he avoided being mangled by an organization that butchered the rest of our pitchers' development. I think as CRB noted, we have several one-hit wonders but few pitchers who demonstrate sustained excellence. Stone was a good call. I hope not to mention Bergy in that category. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if Guthrie does fall in that category but certainly hope against it.
That was a depressing list, bms. Maine being maybe the most depression-inducing... The Kurt Ainsworth reference made me look to remember the other pitcher that came with him from SF for Ponson in 2003. Ah, yes, it was Damien Moss. And I remember actually being convinced by the FO that we made a great trade. Alas, neither team got anything of value, except perhaps indirectly the Giants benefited due to a spike in SF's restaurant and alcohol tax revenues that summer.
Man, wasn't that 2003 pitching staff awful? Here are the culprits: Jason Johnson,Pat Hentgen, Sidney Ponson, Rodrigo Lopez, Travis Driskill Rick Helling, John Parrish, B.J. Ryan, Willis Roberts, Rick Bauer, Omar Daal, Eric DuBose, Sean Douglass, Kurt Ainsworth, Damian Moss, Kerry Ligtenberg, Matt Riley, Jorge Julio, Buddy Groom, Hector Carrasco. I'd like to nominate that entire staff for most disappointing while I'm at it. All except for Buddy Groom's mustache.
You can't tell me there's been no progress looking at this list. Which gets me to the best surprise - Bergy. Always look forward.
oh, maybe Juan Guzman... i thought he would be solid but if I recall his downward slide had already begun. and before anyone gets bent out of shape- i realize that calling mussina a big surprise is a stretch given his pedigree. just wanted to point out how well he did navigated the minefield that was the Oriole's pitching development program.
In terms of biggest surprise for a career, I'd say Curt Schilling. What he accomplished after he left the O's was outstanding. But, at least we got Glenn Davis in return (Ugghhh!)
For biggest disappointment I struggled between Ben McDonald, Daniel Cabrera and Garrett Olsen, but I finally selected Cabrera. Considering all the talent he had (didn't he actually pitch a one-hitter against the Yankees?) and all the pitching coaches that he had a hand in getting fired, he's my choice.
Roch-
I never would have thought Bedard would have been as dominating as he is. When healthy. He is one of the top 2 or 3 lefties.
As far as dissapointed, how about any of the what, 10-12 1st round pitchers they took from about 1995-2002.
Tough questions, Roch. Scott McGregor was the most surprising for me, in a positive sense. His "numbers" didn't inspire much confidence, but his control and smarts made him terrific. Curt Schilling and Jamie Moyer also would have to be on the list, especially Moyer for the same reasons as McGregor. As for the most disappointing, certainly Matt Riley would be on the list, but I believe Ben MacDonald was the most disappointing, despite the limited success he had in the majors. Not only did he have the most hype, but when I saw him pitch a few times for the Os, he was absolutely dominating. I really thought he would be the best pitcher in the league. Another disappointment was Sammy Stewart -- when he pitched long relief at the beginning of his career, I thought it was a natural step toward joining the starting rotation and ultimately heading that rotation.
I don't know that he was tremendously hyped, but one of the big disappointments for me personally was John Parrish. I still remember watching his major league debut where he struck out the side in the first inning against the Yankees and those swings looked BAD. Definitely caused me to shoot off my mouth about how great I thought he was going to be. How embarassing.
As far as surprisingly good pitchers, I'd go with the kid we traded to the Mets, John Maine. Not that's he's been exceptional but I didn't expect much from him (clearly neither did the Orioles) and he's got a winning record, about 100 starts, around a 4 ERA ... pretty solid. I'm sure the Orioles could have used somebody like that instead of the guys they stuck in the rotation instead.
How about every pitcher we drafted from 1998 to 2006. That saves me a lot of typing.
Here is a nice follow up question: Who from this young crop of pitchers will be a HUGE disappointment in the coming years?
My answer.......................Hobgood. As my friends in finance say: "When you pay peanuts, you usually get monkeys working for you."
The Orioles drafted cheap, and now they are in for a huge (literally) letdown from this guy. He struggled at rookie ball and will continue to do so at higher levels because he is in way over his head. Hobgood was not a top 5 pick. Gatorade player of the whatever. You cannot substitute talented college pitchers with some kid who was overpowering 14 year olds with 90 mph junk.
This comes at a time when our minor leagues need a new injection of pitching prospects now that so many have either been called up to the show or moved up to 3a. Boy Alex White or Mike Leake ( proven college pitchers) sure would have looked great at Frederick or Bowie in 2010. I guess we'll never know.
LOL
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So everybody else comes up with their past surprises and disappointments, and you use this entry to slam Hobgood again. Completely off topic and unnecessary. - Roch
Mike Boddicker was the biggest surprise, and easily, Ben McDonald was the biggest disappointment.
Mike Paradis was a first-rounder in 1999. Never made it past Bowie (except 9 games for Ottawa, which barely counts). He was a hotshot coming out of Clemson, but went nowhere fast.
I remember Matt Riley being billed as the next great pitcher for the O's. So I would say Matt Riley. What ever happened to him?
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Was in the Dodgers' system for a while, underwent a second Tommy John surgery and disappeared. - Roch
Dissipointment Adam Lowen Ben MacDonald
Suprise Mike Mussina and Brad Bergesen
Biggest surprise: Mike Mussina. A brilliant pitcher, both before and after Uncle Pete lowballed him and shoved him out the door.
Biggest disappointments (tie): Joe Kucharski, 1st round pick, 1982; Wayne Wilson, 1st round pick, 1983; John Hoover, 1st round pick, 1984; Brad DuVall, 1st round pick, 1987; Chris Myers, 1st round pick, 1987; Ben McDonald, 1st overall pick, 1989; Mark Smith, 1st round pick, 1991; Jeffrey Hammonds, 1st round pick, 1992; Jay Powell, 1st round pick, 1993; Rocky Coppinger, 19th round pick, 1993; Alvie Shepherd, 1st round pick, 1995; Darnell McDonald, 1st round pick, 1997; Matt Riley, 3rd round pick, 1997; Rick Elder, 1st round pick, 1998; Keith Reed, 1st round pick, 1999; Larry Bigbie, 1st round pick, 1999; Richard Stahl, 1st round pick, 1999; Mike Paradis, 1st round pick, 1999; Beau Hale, 1st round pick, 2000; Mike Fontenot, 1st round pick, 2001; Chris Smith, 1st round pick, 2001; Adam Loewen, 1st round pick, 2002.
ALright, here is one more on topic, I hope.
Bergy said: "My mindset going into next season is the same as last season. I don't want to think at all that I'm owed the job or have it waiting for me. I want to go in like I always do and earn it."
Good for him. Then again who can blame Bergy? After the stellar spring he had last year only to be demoted to the minors in favour of Adam Eaton, he better be putting in 12 hour workouts, 6 days a week. Merit is not always rewarded on this team, which means that some guys have to do a lot more to get noticed and win jobs while others get gift wrapped a job no matter how bad or talentless they are.
Hopefully we won't see a repeat in 2010 of the atrocious roster decisions last spring training. Who ever is 2010's Bergesen in ST( Arrieta or Erbe are my picks) should be graded on an equal scale against whatever veteran retread is brought in.
Brummie slams Hobgood again and look who's on the front page of Baseball America........Wouldn't you know it.........
IDIOT.
Roch
There were 20 High School players drafted in the first round of the 2009 MLB draft including supplemental picks. I dont get Bummie's fixation on Hobgood as a bust? He is described as "a big, physical animal -- like a Josh Beckett type." He needs to develop a change up which I am sure he will in the next 2-3 years.
I dont think it was @ money. Joe Jordan loved the guys stuff and CHARACTER. Its ridiculous to call the guy a bust after a few months in Bluefield.
First Mock Draft I have seen for 2010 has us taking Jameson Taillon a RHP from Texas high school. They say "Being from Texas, his body and stuff are beginning to garner Roger Clemens comparisons. He has verbally committed to Rice."...
good Hobgood piece from LA Times a bit dated but....
Matt Hobgood - LA Times P.O.Y.
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Season is all good for Norco's Hobgood
The Norco junior right-hander, The Times' player of the year, was clocked at 96 mph on the radar gun while also putting it all together with major-league pitching and power hitting.
By Dan Arritt, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
June 11, 2008
Three years after his fresh start, Matt Hobgood of Norco chalked up his best start.
That was May 23, the day the junior right-hander outdueled one of the nation's top high school pitchers in a Southern Section-Toyota Division I quarterfinal.
Hobgood lost on the radar gun but won on the scoreboard, throwing a five-hitter to defeat Orange Lutheran and Gerrit Cole, 1-0, at Hart Park in Orange.
Among the dramatic steps in his high school career, this was by far the biggest. Cole, selected in the first round of the Major League Baseball amateur draft last week by the New York Yankees, touched 101 mph on the radar gun that day; Hobgood was tagged at 96.
"Three miles faster than I've ever been clocked," said Hobgood, a 6-foot-4, 240-pounder.
The effort pushed his record to 10-0 and lowered his earned-run average to 1.34. Those numbers are just part of his storybook year. He also hit 15 home runs, which tied for third in the state, according to MaxPreps.com, and hit .489 with 45 runs batted in.
Hobgood said he never expected to achieve this much success this soon.
"The hitting definitely surprised me," said Hobgood, selected The Times' baseball player of the year. "I was coming into the year just hoping to dominate in pitching."
In more ways than one, Hobgood has come a long way during the last three years.
In January 2005, his father, Rick, died of colon cancer at 48, leaving his wife, Becky, four daughters and Matt. The family lived in Arizona at the time.
Rick was first diagnosed when Matt was 6, often leaving him too weak to practice with his son, Matt said. He managed to attend most games, but what Matt remembers most is his father's advice on peer pressure and staying clear of trouble -- something he still adheres to today "just to honor him a little bit and how he talked to me," he said.
Six months after her husband's death, Becky moved her family back to her hometown of Norco, where relatives still lived. "Just to get some support," she said. "I was running on adrenaline."
Matt enrolled at Norco High, where Becky had graduated. He immediately impressed coaches in a summer baseball league. That fall, he played tackle football for the first time, joining the Cougars' freshman team.
Already tall for his age, Hobgood decided to play basketball to help with his baseball conditioning. The experience went well until Hobgood broke his ankle with two weeks remaining in the season, causing him to miss most of his freshman baseball season.
Hobgood tried football again during his sophomore year. Norco is known for producing college-level offensive linemen, and Hobgood was on his way to joining that elite group.
However, throwing a block didn't bring the same satisfaction as firing a two-seam fastball. He also believed the hours spent in the weight room during the summer and fall would hurt his flexibility as a pitcher.
He decided to stick with baseball, and hasn't looked back. He has accepted a scholarship to Cal State Fullerton.
Hobgood's name is likely in the files of most Southland-based professional scouts, and come next year's draft, he could be faced with another tough choice.
Great blog roch. Ihave a question for you. What Scout for the orioles signed the most players in any one season?
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Thanks. I have absolutely no idea. Maybe the Orioles would know, though I'm sure it would take some serious research. - Roch
Brummie,
Bergesen didn't get demoted, to have that occur he would have actually had to be in the Majors first. Also, unless you can gaurantee w/out a doubt that he would have had the same success he enjoyed if he came up earlier in the season they he did? Unless we got sign a big arm like Lackey I don't see any veterans besides Guthrie holding a spot in the rotation. You can pretty much pencil in Matusz, Tillman, Bergy, Guthrie, and then a competition between Hernandez, Berken, and Arrieta for the 5th spot. Also, where do you feel like people haven't earned their way on to the team? The Orioles have forced their minor leaguers to fight their way up instead of just handing them the reigns (which is the way it is supposed to be) while trying to find players to continue to challenge them for their positions. Those w/out options have received looks before being demoted for the obvious reason, which is that they'd have to clear waivers. Most wouldn't consider that special treatment rather common sense. You don't give people up for nothing unless you absolutely have too.
Mr Roch, you are sooo close, just deliver the KO punch and put this clown out! PLEASE!
Not really a young guy but Jamie Moyer (I believe a cubs castoff???) came up from AAA to make a start and exceeded all my expectations and is still pitching...
Ben McDonald is my pick for not meeting my expectations, although he had a decent career with moderate success. I thought with his tallent he would be on the same level as Roger Clemens. Broke my heart to see him in a Brewers uniform pitching in Camden Yards. Ughhhh!!! I want to throw up now thanks for bringing up that repressed memory.
How about Scott Klinginbeck????
We were able to get Scott Erickson for him strait up!!! What a deal!
Roch, I don't know if you've seen this article, but it's about how former Oriole Larry Bigbie should be the face of the steriod era. Really interesting stuff:
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/therundown/2009/02/how_larry_bigbie_became_the_most_important_man_in_baseball_steroids_mike_bogdan.php
It's easy to say Mussina for being a surprise, but he was pretty heralded (not hyped like B Mac), and I thought he would be good.
My biggest happy surprise is Mike Boddicker...seemed like he came out of nowhere. Bergy is up there somewhere. I wasn't sure his stuff would translate to the majors, but it seemed like a light clicked on after a half-dozen games or so.
My biggest disappointment is Matt Riley. He was supposed to be something, and really turned out to be nothing.
DMG...funny
Man...life is way to short to see the world the way Brummie_Oriole and Jack do....always negative, always digging up the same old, tired criticisms.....never a good word to say. What a pitiful way to exist. Roch, you do a great job keeping us true Oriole fans updated on everything O's and also keeping the hot stove stoked.
Exceeded- Jim Palmer
Under Achieved- Hayden Penn
Can I add Jamie Walker in as a disappointment? I know he is well like (by fans and opposing teams) but he just seemed to have lost it.
While I am revisiting painful displays... any word on how Millar adjusted to being a role player and not an everydayer?
Dear Roch (and especially Schoolmates),
Is there anyway you and the School could help me start a petition to have the Hilton hotel behind the Yards paint that wall in an O's-themed fashion? I really don't know how to start such a thing myself.
That Hilton was built with city (and probably also state) money, which suggests we should have some pull in such a request, and frankly it's a good business move for the Hilton, as there's little more memorable than a full-sized Orioles mural to grace your otherwise boring and annoying concrete gray. Having blocked the Bromo building from the 3B-line view, this is not only the least the Hilton can do for 3B-line, but again, good for their interests as well...
Businessperson #1: Hey, where did you stay?
Businessperson #2: In that cool Hilton right outside the Orioles stadium! My room was actually that guy Wieters' helmet!
If the Hilton doesn't know what's good for them and balks, I'll help raise money so we can help pay for it (although Hilton should have done this already if they had any acumen at all...).
Lots of good nominations on the board for biggest disappointment. Ben McDonald is certainly an easy choice. I was going to pick Rocky Coppinger, remember him? For some reason he reminded me of Roger Clemmons, and when he didn't pitch like Roger I was disappointed.
But then I saw Daniel Cabrerra nominated a few times and that just brought back a rush of bad memories that I thought had left the building for good. But no, the pain is still here. That guy could look absolutely fabulous when he was on, but the other 5 out of 6 times when he was off he was just awful -- and awfully frustrating to watch. So to see how good he was when he was good, but then see how he was never able to be consistently good, that gets my vote for biggest disappointment.
Biggest surpise, I'll go with Gregg Olsen.
I can't take it anymore... I have to chime in...
It seems like everyone is saying what a bust Ben McDonald was and I've seen a bunch of people mention what a great surprise Mike Boddicker was.
Okay, Ben was supposed to be better and Boddicker was better than expected (and had greater longevity)... but let's look at a few ratios, shall we?
Career Winning % - Boddicker: .536 and McDonald .527
Career ERA - Boddicker: 3.80 and McDonald 3.91
Career WHIP - Boddicker: 1.32 and McDonald 1.26
Career Strikeout/BB - Boddicker: 1.84 and McDonald 2.05
Man, that's about as even as they come. Who knew that Boddicker and McDonald were the same guy?
Surprises: Mike Mussina. I had gotten used to disappointment with the O's young players and draft picks. Moose made the big club quickly and was, arguably, the second-best starter in Orioles history by the time he left. IMO, he belongs in the O's HOF with his number retired.
Busts: Matt Riley in terms of talent. If only the O's hadn't called him up so young. I list him over Ben McDonald because Riley basically fell off the face of the earth, while McDonald had a few years in the bigs after he left here (with the Brewers, IIRC).
In terms of head space, Scott Erickson. He pitched well during part of his tenure here, but instead of being a positive mentor to our young pitchers, he was a surly head case. I think it's fair to say that Erickson had some kind of negative effect on Ponson's development.
Robably Bergesen, to be honest, I really knew nothing about him, until he made his debut.
Now for disapointment, hands down, D- Cab
Disappointing: Ken Dixon
Surprising: Boddicker
I wonder if Jim Palmer belongs in this discussion: youngest pitcher to start a WS game; how old would you have to be for Jim to be a surprise? His career just unfolded and Orioles fans reveled in its greatness, without thinking how much Jim had exceeded expectations.
Brad was the organization's Pitcher of the Year in 2008; he didn't exactly sneak up on us; and it is too soon to label his career as surprising, but it certainly looks promising.
I will regret this in the morning, but reconsidering Bergesen's spring training performance and his brief stint at Norfolk, I think it is fair to question the wisdom of leaving BB off the OD roster; therefore, I am sheepishly declaring myself in agreement with Brummie's opinion, not his attitude.
In Nov. 2001, Rodrigo Lopez was signed by the evil Syd Thrift; that winter, he pitched for The Culiacan Tomato Growers and helped Mexico win the Caribbean WS and went on to be an unexpected, pleasant surprise.
Injuries were responsible for unpleasant ends to the careers of Matt Riley and, more recently, Adam Loewen. The loss of Loewen, two years before the MacPhail Renaissance, is particularly bitter -- but not as bitter as his loss will be if he returns as an impact player for Toronto.
I agree with howie: I recall the disappointment of right-handed phenom Mike Adamson from USC. Mike was selected by the O's as the first pick in the Secondary Phase of the 1967 amateur draft (solely to remind everyone how very special I am because of my major league career as an intern with the Orioles).
Mike signed with the Orioles on June 27, 1967 and on July 1st pitched against the White Sox; he was 19-years-old and the first drafted player to appear in a major league game before spending time in the minors.
During Mike's first stop in Baltimore, I spent some time with him, including a brief short-toss session, which opened my eyes to the unnaturally-live arms handed out to a few lucky people.
He threw with an easy motion -- just a game of catch -- which propelled the ball as if he were throwing to someone twenty feet behind me.
In the '67-'69 seasons, Mike was up and down between Baltimore and Rochester. In 1968, Mike began to regress; 1970, his fourth year at Rochester, was his least successful; by 1971 he was out of baseball. His live arm did not hold up under the stress of professional baseball.
Was Brad Bergesen called up too late?
JDB and Brummie,
I'm going to disagree with the notion that it was indeed a mistake to leave Bergy off of the Opening Day roster. At Bowie in 2008, he threw 148 innings on his way to a 3.22 ERA and, as JDB noted, being named the organization's Pitcher of the Year. While that isn't something to ignore, it certainly doesn't suggest he'd be knocking on the door without pitching at AAA. In ST, he amassed 11.2 IP with an ERA of 3.09. Brian Bass, Matt Albers and Alfredo Simon all had a better ERA with more innings pitched. 2009 wasn't about wins and losses, so what is the harm in sending him to Norfolk to ensure he's ready for the big leagues?
A few starts of Adam Eaton? That's what rebuilding is all about.