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We all knew these guys would make the 40-man roster. I am a little surprised about Pedro Florimon though.

Glad to see Hughes on there, I think he may have some potential. Who else needs to go the 40 man off the top of your head Roch? (or should go on that is).
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I updated the entry to mention a few guys who are now exposed to the Rule 5. - Roch

Roch, who does this leave out for possibly losing in the Rule 5?
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I mentioned a few guys in the updated version. Steve Johnson and Josh Perrault, to name two. - Roch

Just read your update. Hate to lose Johnson. But I do remember MacPhail saying the club could possibly make a move by December 7.

So, are Steve Johnson and Josh Perrault unprotected from the Rule 5 draft? I say they are worth putting in the 40 man roster.
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Yes, they're unprotected. - Roch

It seems odd to me to protect Florimon over Johnson, when Johnson is a) closer to ML ready, b) a more coveted position, and c) seemingly so well regarded in the organization. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the decision, but it does strike me as odd.

How can they let Steve Johnson unprotected? They are crazy! Sure to lose him and sure to regret it. He is probably going to be ready for the majors at some point next year anyway and is a major sleeper in our system. He could be next year's Brad Bergesen. I really hope they make a move to protect him before Friday.

Roch,

Can you find out why Johnson was unprotected? This seems like a really bad decision when we are protecting BOTH Hughes and Aubrey (why not just pick one). I can understand Florimon over Johnson. Thanks.

We also can not participate in the Rule V Draft with a Full 40 man.

I am surprised they kept someone like Waters on there. Then again he may be off the roster soon.

I also think RP Chad Thall is eligible to be taken in the Rule V as well.

Roch, can you post the FULL 40-man roster as it currently stands? The one on orioles.com is not updated.

Wow! So we think that Liz, Gabino, Sarfante, Albers, and Andino are more important to the future of the team than Johnson (or even Perrault)? Gotta believe that someone like SD or PITT could take Johnson and keep him on the team all year as a middle reliever since he's only making the jump from AA. This seems stupid to me unless we're playing a game where we drop Gabino or one of the other guys at the last minute and hope that no picks him up. Its not like Johnson struck out 154 in 145 innings last year with an ERA of 3.41 and a WHIP of under 1.3...No wait he did. If we lose this guy to protect the AAAA re-treads/neverwases, I'm going to have to go over to the dark side with the ANDREW guys. Just when I was starting to think our front office knew what the heck they were doing...
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Keep in mind that some of these guys could still come off the roster later if the Orioles sign free agents or make trades. - Roch

Ok, call me stupid, I give up...I've never heard the name Luis Lebron mentioned before.
What's the deal w/ this guy over Johnson?

Love the name Florimon.
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From Steve Melewski's blog: Between Frederick and Bowie, he was 3-3, 2.54 ERA and in 60 1/3 innings gave up just 28 hits with 33 walks and 91 strikeouts. Batters hit just .137 off him last year. - Roch

shot in the dark.....orioles sign...joe crede-03b,john smoltz-closer,branden looper-rhp and chad tracy-3b also david weathers and wil ohman added to the bullpen.realeased from orginazation.....mccrory,liz,murphy,pauley,fiorentino,abreu,nowicki,jim miller

Okay, now that I see Johnson on the list, I've got to know... when does the rule 5 draft start and end? Could we still make changes there or are we done? I agree with Kiko Garcia, it seems like there were more likely candidates than Steve Johnson though most of the ones he listed have MLB experience.
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Dec. 10. Changes can be made until Friday afternoon, but as I wrote, the Orioles aren't expected to alter it. - Roch

Pedro Florimo? Also, I agree with Kiko.... Liz, Gabino, Sarfate, & , Albers are more valuable?
That says one of two things.... Johnson is/was overrated & was just a throw in after all in the Bell-Sherrill deal OR all this hype that the FO sent out about Johnson was just to save face on the Sherrill deal.

Not sure why both Aubrey and Hughes are protected since Snyder is who we're looking at. Seems redundant. Johnson not being protected is kind of strange after the Sherill trade. Weird.

Let's see a show of hands for how many people think that Johnson will stick on a ML roster for the entire year if he's claimed? That's the determining factor.

What is the deal with Hughes? Why is he rated so highly by them? So Castillo, Bass, Albers and Sarfate "survived", exposing some decent prospects. Makes little sense unless they really have overrated some of them previously.

An old question that I believe never got answered though you were going to look into it. Once a player is picked by another team, can the O's then protect one or 2 more before another can be taken?
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I believe they can protect one. I'll get a reminder once I'm at the meetings. - Roch

Are the O's eligible to draft anyone in the Rule V if they have a full roster?
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No. - Roch

Roch,
Hughes and Liz over Steve Johnson?

Maybe we are packaging up Johnson in a trade before Friday?

Otherwise I do not understand why we do not protect him. Like several others have stated, it seems that Johnson would be more valuable to us then Albers, Liz and Sarfate...

Seems odd...

Also, as someone mentioned -- we have to have an open spot on the 40-man roster to actually draft someone, so with no openings, does that mean we are not planning on trying to get anyone in the Rule V draft.

Even odder...

If a player is selected in the rule 5 they have to stay on the 25 man roster for the entirety of the following season, right? I cant see anybody keeping Steve Johnson hidden on an MLB roster for a full season.

Thanks, Roch. I think I would cry if we lost Steve Johnson to the rule 5 draft. He seems to be another Brad Bergesen and that would just be a waste to lose him. I think Johnson has a lot more upside than Liz and not to mention that Castillo is a waste of space. I wouldn't mind getting rid of Brian Bass either. Crossing my fingers for Johnson.

Oh, no! Steve Johnson was one of the six players that I'd going in a deal for Adrian Gonzalez.

Why in the heck are Johnson and Perrault off of this roster? This doesn't make any sense.

My question is this: If we make a trade before 11/7 that takes us below the 40man limit, can either of these two guys be added?

Otherwise, I don't know what the Orioles are thinking, unless these two guys are going to be in a big trade soon!
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I assume you mean 12/7. No. You can only add players if acquired in a trade or signed as free agent. - Roch

Brian,

"all this hype"? Nearly all of the hype I saw was from the media. Everyone on here blasts the FO for not saying anything, now they get blasted for saying too much. Can't win.

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Roch,

Surprised to see Florimon on there, as I said in an earlier thread, it's unlikely a single A infielder is going to make the jump. Even if he's picked, the odds are good he'd be offered back at some point during the year. Sort of surprised to see Hughes on there too.

I bet more moves are forthcoming before the rule-5. There are at least a couple of AAAA types on the 40-man roster. Bass, Waters & Castillo come to mind. I had hoped our young pitchers were far enough along we wouldn't need to carry guys like Bass as insurance.

I still see Hendrickson's name, was he resigned?

Baldy
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Hendrickson shouldn't be on that list. I believe the O's site also lists Baez. They are free agents. - Roch

Leaving Johnson off the roster could be a big mistake. Or it could be that everyone here knows 5% of what the FO knows about him. I guess I'll go with the latter until proven wrong.

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting this, but are we sure Steve Johnson is eligible for the Rule 5? The years until a player is eligible to be selected were extended in the new CBA in 2006.

According to Alan Schwarz from Baseball America:
"The major league portion of the Rule 5 draft will be affected by giving teams one extra year to protect players from it.

Rather than teams being allowed three years (for players signed at age 19 or older) or four years (for players 18 and younger) before leaving them off the 40-man roster subjects them to the Rule 5 draft, those periods have been lengthened to four and five. Ownership considered this a significant boost in their efforts to operate their minor league systems more effectively."

Since Steve Johnson was signed in 2005 at age 17 or 18, would that not mean he isn't elegible till next year(as this is the 5th rule 5 since his signing)?

Also, from MLB.com:

"Minor League players can now be protected from the Rule 5 Draft for an extra year, to four or five years."

Is there any way you can verify if he is elegible or not for certain?
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I already have multiple times. He was drafted the same year as Snyder and Erbe. He is eligible for the Rule 5. - Roch

Please clarify my "fuzziness" about the 40 man roster decisions (still can't figure out how both Castillo or Bass, both older very replacable pitchers, were kept over a prospect).

If the O's went after Uggla, can't they trade anyone in the system, 40 man roster notwithstanding? So Johnson, Perrault, etal can be moved prior to 12/7 to get Uggla, or someone else, prior to the Rule V draft. Then they'd drop someone off the 40 man list to make room unless someone on the list was included in the trade.

Maybe they have a plan!!!!
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Starting on Friday, you can only add players to the 40-man who are acquired via trade or free agency. And as I pointed out to another reader, they'll need to clear more room if they intend to add a third baseman, first baseman, pitcher, etc. So guys like Bass and Castillo aren't assured of going to spring training. - Roch

Why all the hype over Steve Johnson? When we got him as the second guy in the Sherrill trade, the scouting reports ranged from "organizational depth" to "possible back-of-the-rotation starter." This is a guy we're up in arms about? Maybe he's the next Brad Bergesen, but maybe he's the next CHris Waters, too.

I do agree that protecting Johnson is a better move than protecting Waters, Liz, or Albers. But excluding Johnson, in and of itself, isn't the end of the world.

Thanks Roch.

Dr. Tom,

You're right that Johnson may not be terrific but better to protect him and Perrault, where there is the possible upside of a young prospect, vs. the known "ceiling" in Waters, Castillo, Bass etal that are very replacable as well as very unlikey to get selected so they could stay with the O's.

Roch, If we didnt protect steve johnson.. do you think we may be packaing him in a trade ?
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I don't have an explanation. They could have protected him and still dealt him, which would have created room for the guy they acquired. - Roch

Pedro who? Luis what?

HORRIBLE roster decisions. I would say "WTG", but I'd get deleted.

What is going on in the Warehouse? Is anyone even awake? Johnson NEEDS to be on the 40 man roster. He is a valuable prospect. He could very well be in the majors by mid-season. Therefore a team might be willing to take a chance on him and use him out of the pen for the first part of the season.

ugh. As a SP grad, it's tough to see Johnson exposed. Especially after giving up 2 and a half years of Sherrill. It is very difficult to imagine a team plucking Bass, Liz or Albers ahead of Johnson or Perrault, and from a fan's perspective that seems to be the logic that should guide these 40-man decisions. I guess with Florimon that we're just desperate not to lose a middle-infield prospect.

On an unrelated note, I am disgusted by the regular Pedro Feliz talk in the Sun. He was a weak bat in a great lineup in a hitter's park in the national league. Troy Glaus is the guy I think we should be talking about. I don't understand why we would fill out our roster with more Wigginton-level producers. Healthy mediocrity is not going to get us past fourth place (and that only with the Blue Jays rebuilding). It seems like a better idea in our division to try to get lucky with talented but injury prone guys like Glaus/Nady/Bedard/Harden.

I don't think I could ever spend enough time at the lobotomy clinic to EVER believe that protecting Brian Bass over Steve Johnson is a good idea.

Bass, and Waters defiently need to be released. Albers, Liz, Sarfate, and Castillo are on the bubble. S.Johnson, and Perrault deserve to be added to the roster as well. The O's need fresh young talented pitchers.

Keeping Florimon is odd. He is 23 year-old shortstop who is career .934 minor league fielder, who last year hit .267 for Frederick and .091 for Bowie.
Not worth a spot.
Johnson, who is 22 years old, was with 2 AA teams last year and had a 2.36 ERA in 53.1 innings, gave up 36 hits, 22 walks and had 55 strike outs.
He was definitely worth keeping over Florimon, Bass, Sarfate, Waters and Liz.

Assuming we are going to be adding a third baseman, first baseman, Vlad at DH (my pick), a veteran starter, and one more reliever, we are going to lose five guys off the current 40 man. That's where Waters, Castillo, et al. get released and we try to sign them for an invite to spring training. If they were to let them loose now to make room for Johnson, Perrault, and probably several other guys we are exposing to the Rule V, then we are looking at losing the next level of guys beyond the Waters and Castillos and Liz's (I seriously doubt Liz's is a proper use of the english language). That would be the Rhyne Hughes types, and that reliever we just picked up - basically a higher level of prospect being let go. But by balancing the chance that teams won't be able to afford giving a 25 man roster spot to Johnson, Perrault and the several others, we get to protect guys who would otherwise definitely be snapped up by other teams.

Remember when the O's used to pick up guys and try to stash them for the year. Never worked out as far as I can recall. And it may be a good sign that we don't plan on being a part of the Rule V. It says our depth is such that we don't need to hide projects, like that speedy infielder guy we got from Minnesota a few years ago (forget his name).

I would be willing to bet that Steve Johnson , Blake Davis and Ryan Adams all get protected by the deadline. I cant imagine that the O's would take a chance on any of the three being snapped up.
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They can't be added to the roster after Friday. - Roch

Roch- Almost All of my friends say "i gotta bounce when theyre leaving" and have for years. i guess its an "in" statement for people mid 30's and below, i dont know. anyway, Dont get keeping Floriman over Johnson. Even if Johnson is traded it still dont make sense given we would need to create space for whomever we may aquire. i was hoping there may be some young shortstop prospect the O's were eyeing who may be exposed to the rule 5 but i guess at roster capacity, that line of thaught is squashed. it makes sense. if we were able to pick up a SS we wouldnt need Andino, and we have nothing in the minors so past izturez this season were screweed at the position.

brummie

in july, you said we only got johnson because he's a son of a former guy...WTF-ing go!!!!!! Way to flip flop you D

Brummie_Oriole said:

Pedro who? Luis what?

HORRIBLE roster decisions. I would say "WTG", but I'd get deleted.

What is going on in the Warehouse? Is anyone even awake? Johnson NEEDS to be on the 40 man roster. He is a valuable prospect. He could very well be in the majors by mid-season. Therefore a team might be willing to take a chance on him and use him out of the pen for the first part of the season.
November 18, 2009 5:32 PM
___________________

Strange to read this since you blasted MacPhail all over the place for making the Sherrill trade. Go figure.

Roch,
what are your personal thoughts on not placing Steve Johnson on the roster? It would definately be a shame to see him get claimed this early in his Oriole career.
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I was very surprised, but they must not think a team will claim him and try to keep him on the 25-man roster for an entire season. - Roch

A few years ago we traded for some guy Davis? Bad vibes then. Now, bad vibes all over again when I read Perrault and Johnson are unprotected. Get rid of the AAAA guays like Albers and Liz, or another infielder. But not these 2. Come on Andy, keep helping us!

roch
summary on mlbtraderumors.com

Orioles Rumors: Corner Infielders, Hendrickson
By Mike Axisa [November 18 at 3:14pm CST]

MLB.com's Alden Gonzalez has a bunch of Orioles rumors for us, but unfortunately they're spread out among a half-dozen tweets or so. Here's the goods...

* Andy MacPhail said that they've "made no secret about the fact that we're looking for corner infielders."
* ESPN's Keith Law notes the team has some prospects coming up at first and third base, but MacPhail acknowledged that they probably aren't ready to contribute yet. Gonzalez mentions the team's two most notable prospects, Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder, will likely get some more seasoning in the minors.
* MacPhail also said the team plans to accumulate whatever pitching they can.
* Regarding free agent lefty Mark Hendrickson, "We've talked with his [rep], & I think we both have a pretty good understanding of where we are ..."
* When it comes to trading prospects, MacPhail said "I think we'll be judicious about giving up any of those guys we think are a part of our core future... I would think it unlikely ... we gave up a young key part of our future and just got something back that would be a short-term answer."
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We've pretty much covered all of that. - Roch

Nice tidbit from Jim Calis on an ESPN chat:

Nick (New York)

Has the industry collective on Brandon Snyder crossed-over into ML-regular territory yet?
Jim Callis
(2:45 PM)

Yes.

Aren't there different levels of the Rule 5 draft? Having a full 40 man roster precludes them from adding a major league rule 5 guy, but as I recall last year, MacPhail drafted several minor league rule 5 guys at the A and AA levels and they did not have to be placed on the 25 man or 40 man roster if I recall correctly.

Huge mistake not putting Johnson on the 40 man. Its just a really bad move. Consider him gone...stupid stupid stupid. Losing confidence...grrr

I just noticed that Erbe was born on Christmas day. Lucky for him. Christmas Presents, Birthday Cake, and Birthday Presents.

Roch,

Help a brother out, can you find us an explanation why Johnson was left off the 40 man??

Thanks

I'm a little worried that Johnson isn't on the 40 man but at the same time is there really a team out there that is going to take a guy with 43 AA innings, who didn't put up great numbers until last year at lower levels and stash him on their major league roster all season. At the same time, there is no need for Waters to be on the 40 man any more with the experience Hernandez and Berken got last year if they really are going to bring in a free agent starter. If injuries occur you could fill the gap with one of them, or Henderickson if he's back or bring up Arrieta. Everyone just cross your fingers.

Florimon is more likely to be taken in the Rule 5 than Johnson. Florimon could be stashed for a year by a NL team to use him as a defensive utility infielder and pinch runner, then sent to the minors in 2011 for more seasoning. Curious that they protected him while exposing Blake Davis, who was an unfortunate injury away from making the team out of spring training last season.

Johnson, OTOH, would get hammered next season. Most successful Rule 5 pitchers are guys with plus-plus arms and no control. They get to spend the season pitching mop up duty while working all year with the major league pitching coach. Johnson is not one of those guys, and most organizations (I would hope) would know that they would be wasting their pick on him. I would think that Perrault would be more likely to be taken than Johnson. I'd like to think that I'll wake up tomorrow and read that the O's have DFA'd Chris Waters and Bryan Bass and placed Johnson and Perrault on the 40-man roster.

Beerman Cold Beer, I don't like to name names, but your suggestion in an earlier post that Ravens fans give Peyton Manning the Bud Adams wave is an insult to a man who is a huge fan of Johnny Unitas and doesn't like being compared to him.
Besides, Peyton was only 7 years old when the Colts left town.

Leaving Steve Johnson off the 40 man is absolutely insane! I cannot believe that Liz and Waters (and half the roster) is better than Johnson. This is one gamble they will regret. Washington gets the first pick. . . .

I dunno, I don't recall to many rule V pitchers making waves. Could be me, I'm sure there are a few good ones and I'm sure I know of them, I just don't feel like doing the research. I'm not a journalist like Mr. ducks in a row_dummie, who by the way lambasted MacPhail about the Bell/Johnson trade. Nice flip flop, again...do you even know what you are talking about anymore? You sound like a giant arse moreso than ever.

I am still befuddled by this move. How? How can Andrew leave Johnson exposed? Is this payback for some comment Dave made on the radio?

Johnson is as good as gone. Someone will take a chance on him and use him as a reliever next year while he builds up his talent.

Liz, Waters and Lambert have had their chances. Send them back to the bush leagues!

Thanks again Andrew. Your "plan" continues to amaze us all.

ROCH...are you saying that after Fridays deadline the 40 man cannot be changed until the Dec 10 draft ?.......With all the trades & pickups between Friday & Dec 10 if someone is signed don't they have to be put on the 40 man ? ....How does that work ?
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You can add players acquired in trades or via free agency, but you can't shuffle players from within your organization. - Roch

Roch - Can you think of any rule 5 guys that went onto great careers with any team? Jay Gibbons was a rule 5, and he was good for a few years...but I can't think of any Orioles - or any other team for that matter that made a great "steal". Can you?
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There's a bunch of them. You'd be surprised. Do a Google search with that question and check out the list. It begins with Roberto Clemente. There's also Johan Santana and George Bell. Shane Victorino was chosen twice (he was returned to his original team the first time). - Roch

roch i know this is off subject . but is bedard expected to be a go in spring training ? for who ever he signs with .
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That's the assumption. I haven't seen any reports saying otherwise. - Roch

Hey Roch,

I did mean 12/7. Thanks for the correction. I really think that the Orioles are making a mistake here. I'd much rather see Liz, Waters or Bass off the roster in place of Johnson and Perrault. Why mortgage the future for guys who have had very limited (if any) success at the major league level?

Roch

There is no way a ML team is going to keep SJ on a 25 man roster all season.
He began this year in SINGLE A. In a 162 game season I dont see any team keeping him on a ML roster all season...maybe you can stash a position player but what team uses 1/25th of their roster on a kid who most likely wont throw many innings? This is a non event.

The rule states:

If the draftee does not stay on the selecting team's 25-man (major league) roster all season, the player must be offered back to his original team at half-price

Schoolman and Fellow Pupils,
I am finding it very difficult, at this moment, to not hit "caps lock" and address a cyber-note to Andrew.

I have counted to ten and I am beginning to relax a little about exposing Steven to the RULE V Draft.

After absorbing a pounding following trading George -- not that Andy gets overwrought about public opinion -- I think he has the next two days carefully planned so that we will not expose S. Johnson to the RVD.

We may lose Steven in a trade, which would be a generally unpopular resolution to Johnson's roster status; but, it is the type of move we will have to learn to accept with equanimity to keep the renewal plan moving forward.

For anyone who is curious about Luis Lebron and the decision to protect him:

Luis Lebron is a player who you may become much more familiar with in the next year or so. As Roch mentioned, Steve Melewski wrote a blog entry about him recently, entitled "He had a breakout year in the O's Minors in 2009". You can read the entire thing here:

http://masnsports.com/2009/11/he-had-a-breakout-year-in-the.html

"Breakout year" may be a bit of an understatement about how this young man performed coming off a major injury. Here are his stats:

"Between Frederick and Bowie he went 3-3, 2.54 with 20 saves. In 60 1/3 innings, he gave up just 28 hits with 33 walks and 91 strikeouts. Opponents hit just .137 off him last season."

The jaw-dropping statistic that grabbed me in that line is that over half of his outs (91/181, 50.3%, 1 out of every 2) came from strikeouts. Now nobody expects this to continue at higher levels, but it's obvious that the guy has some talent.

And this type of pitcher is exactly the kind that you could see a team taking a chance on in the rule-5 draft, because there's a good possibility he could come up to the majors and at least be serviceable out of the pen.

Good move in my opinion, and I really look forward to seeing Luis Lebron pitch in Baltimore next season.

Given how mediocre Chris Waters and Radhames Liz have proven themselves to be, I have to assume that they'll be removed from the 40 man roster for Johnson and Perrault. I also think someone else could come off (Brian Bass perhaps?) to make room for a Rule 5 draftee. We've seen the ceiling for the aforementioned players. Let's now give some new blood a chance.

Here's the thing. Let's say we go out and sign a couple of free agents. We have to put them on the 40-man roster, replacing someone already there. With our current 40-man roster, we can just remove Waters / Albers / Liz / etc. and there's no problem.

But say every space on the 40-man roster were filled by a major leaguer or someone we wanted to keep. Then, we have a problem, because you have to remove someone by sending them through waivers.

So the question is, what's more likely - a team picking Steve Johnson in the Rule 5 draft, keeping him on their ML roster for the entire season? Or a team claiming Steve Johnson off waivers placing him on their 40-man roster (but not the ML roster, because he has options remaining)?

Also, the Orioles' website lists Baez and Hendrickson as still being on the 40-man roster. Since they've filed for free agency, they're no longer on the club come Friday, right? Can the O's replace them on the 40-man before the Rule 5? (That doesn't matter if you think my argument is correct - it's not the space that's the problem, it's putting them on the 40-man at all.)

Tom said:
"Can you think of any rule 5 guys that went onto great careers with any team?"

Tom, I believe Paul Blair was also a Rule 5 draftee, though that was back when the Rule 5 draft was for top-first year draftees. In other words, Blair was drafted by the Mets in 1961 an then Rule 5 draft of the Orioles in 62. Slightly different rules back then.

Roch included several others and there have been a couple of dozen all-starts selected as Rule V players.

I believe Big Papi was a rule V claim as well.

This situation reminds me of when Salazar was put through waivers last year.

"OMG!!!1!"

"He's as good as gone!!!"

"So much for THE PLAN!!!!"

And then on Monday he clears waivers like nothing happened.

Johnson will either clear Rule 5, or he'll get selected and won't make it through a full season in the big leagues and we'll get him back. He's not ML ready.

Robby B said:
I believe Big Papi was a rule V claim as well.

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Nope. Ortiz was traded from Seattle to Minnesota in 1996. Ortiz was then released in 2002 by Minnesota after six non-steroid seasons where he maxed out at 20 HRs. By comparison, in his seven years in Boston his lowest HR total was 23 in an injury-plagued 2008 season where he only played 109 games.

WHY WAS Cris Britton left off 40 man roster? draft in 2006.
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I assume you mean Zach? He doesn't have to be protected yet. - Roch