Staff injections (with update)
Keep your hands off my mama, keep your hands off my Doritos.
Consider yourselves warned.
Since we examined the 13 available spots for position players earlier today, let's shift to the 12-man pitching staff.
Keep in mind, of course, that performances and potential late acquisitions will influence the list. We're tackling this issue on Feb. 8 (and doing a much better job of it than the Colts' secondary).
Kevin Millwood, Jeremy Guthrie, Brad Bergesen and Brian Matusz are expected to break camp as members of the starting rotation. Perhaps Guthrie moves down so we don't have innings-eaters going back-to-back, but that's a separate debate.
Chris Tillman is the early favorite to win the fifth starter's job, so I'll include him here and move on to the bullpen.
Mike Gonzalez is the closer. The Orioles aren't paying him a guaranteed $12 million over two years, with an additional $4 million possible in incentives, to work in a set-up role.
Jim Johnson, Mark Hendrickson - if he ever signs - and a healthy Koji Uehara can be penciled into the 'pen, leaving us with three more openings. Determining who fills them is complicated by the Orioles' interest in signing another left-hander.
Update: I'm told that Hendrickson's signing is expected this week, and the delay shouldn't be viewed as a red flag. I'm postponing the candlelight vigil. And I'm not bringing up Hendrickson's name again until he's officially passed his physical.
Until I'm told otherwise, Will Ohman remains their first choice to serve as a specialist if he's willing to accept a minor league deal with a spring invite. He's a health riddle after undergoing elbow and shoulder surgery, but that makes him more easily obtainable.
If we're playing the hand that we've been dealt on Feb. 8, we can sort through a pile that includes Cla Meredith, Matt Albers, Kam Mickolio, Dennis Sarfate, Alberto Castillo and Mike Hinckley. I'll be surprised if left-hander Wilfrido Perez makes the jump from Double-A to the majors after undergoing surgery in July to remove bone chips from his elbow, but he'll be in the running. And it's probably too soon for Luis Lebron.
It's also conceivable that the Orioles shift David Hernandez or Jason Berken - yes, I'm grouping them together again - to the bullpen. Berken could be a swingman. Hernandez could do the same or be used later in games as a one- or two-inning power arm who serves as a bridge to the set-up man.
Another debate: Are they better off in a major league bullpen or Triple-A rotation?
The bullpen competition might be the most interesting aspect of spring training, beyond Miguel Tejada's adjustment to third base and the curiosity surrounding top position prospect Josh Bell.
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Categories (click for archive)Roch Kubatko | Roch Kubatko Orioles |
I would probably choose Meredith, Sarfate and Hernandez, though Hernandez may be booted to AAA for a season if we do indeed sign another lefty.
Staff injections...very good...I see what you did there.
Better off in a bullpen, preferably long relief. Personally I don't think much of Albers, Mickolio, Sarfate and Co. With Matusz hardly a sure thing and the 5th starter, the long relievers will likely get enough work.
Another lefty isn't needed. Especially from those names.
Roch,
Any word on Troy Patton? Are they looking at him as a possible starter or will he be in the bullpen if he can stay healthy and get to the majors? Also how far away is he? Can he compete for a spot this year?
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He hit a wall after moving up to Triple-A, so I expect him to start the season in Norfolk's rotation. What happens from there is anybody's guess. Depends how he's pitching. We could see him later this summer if he's healthy and putting up impressive numbers. - Roch
Roch - Doesn't Will Ohman have a plus 5 era? Why do we want him especially coming off an injury? I say go with the young guns in the system.
Also, if Chris Tillman doesn't make it as the fifth starter, who would be your next choice in the rotation?
Thanks.
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They like him as a lefty specialist if he's healthy. He'd have to earn a spot. My next choice for fifth starter would depend on who had the best camp. Need to see these guys pitch. - Roch
My final three would be:
1. Meredith
2. Sarfate
3. Castillo
Albers as never really sown me anything. Sarfate seems like he is going to be on a mission this year. I thought Meredith did a solid job last year.
I would like to think that Mickolio deserves a spot after the solid work he did last year with the team. Same can be said for Meredith, especially because he's a guy who can give you 65 appearances in a season. That leaves us just a situational lefty.
Kind of a shame, because I would also like to see either Hernandez or Berken. Perhaps one of them cracks camp with the team, but that probably leaves Mickolio out who definitely deserves it.
Honestly, I think it all comes down to spring. You go out there and pitch to a 2.00 ERA and you're probably going to make it.
Who stays in the bullpen could come down to who has options left.
Options are defined as follows as listed at http://static.espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html
After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft. Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.
When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.
When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers.
Roch, is there any site that you know of that lists player options? Obviously the question of who has options will come up repeatedly during the season.
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Don't know, but please pass it along if you find one. Would come in handy. - Roch
I see where you were going with staff injections/infections but I surely don't want injections of anyone's staff...
Steve Melewski laying the smackdown on the "journalist" Brummie! LOL:
Brummie_Oriole said:
Anytime you add a .251 career hitter at 3A, the spin doctors in the Warehouse BETTER be working OT!
_______________________
Stockstill really put the spin on it, didn't he. Saying "we look for him to try and make our Triple-A club." You sit there and criticize the front office when they don't explain moves to your satisfaction. Then a club official takes the time to talk about the acqusition of a minor lg free agent that is not even going to camp and you rip that.
What is wrong with you??? Steve
Berken was a disaster last year & as much as I like Hernandez, he wasn't too good either. Come to think of it, Tillman wasn't lights out either...
I think "Berk-nandez," kinda like "Bennifer" or "Brangelina" should start the year in Triple-A. Gone are the Adam Eatons & Alfredo Simons of the world to muck up our rotation!
Tillman scares me in that he's still very green at 21 years of age...I would hate to have him take a beating in the AL East & screw up his confidence, but the kid has DOMINATED everywhere he's played so the only logical choice is to throw him out there and see if he sinks or swims?!?
The old Oriole Way, which many here justifiably sing the praises of, was to put the young guys in the major league bullpen. They would get the opportunity to work with the best pitching coach in the organization and observe and learn from the veteran pitchers on the staff. They would also get to face major league hitters in controlled situations.
Where that philosophy breaks down is in the way modern pitchers (starters and relievers) are used today. Since starters rarely complete games, in fact, only seem to average about 6-7 innings per start, the bullpen must consist of a collection of specialists and there is very little room for a guy who needs controlled situations.
Unless the O's intend on changing their organizational position towards starting pitchers (a la Nolan Ryan in Texas), pitchers who are slotted as potential starters probably should remain in the minors until a major league starting slot opens up.
I get the feeling i am getting ignored....
didnt appreciate the Melvin fact?
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You mean the suggestion that he should go in the Hall of Fame? I assumed you were kidding. - Roch
Roch,
It should be an interesting competition for the bullpen spots, may the best men win. I wouldn't be disappointed if Tillman started the season in Norfolk, but then who gets the 5th starter spot? It wouldn't surprise me to see Berken (not Berknandez) get packaged into some sort of trade during the season. And with all the February 8 references in this post I might add that it is my birthday, I'm celebrating by working a 10 hour day. Beats shoveling snow though!
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Happy Birthday! I hope you have something better planned later. - Roch
Heres my take for the final 3 spots:
1. Meredith - would have to crap the bed pretty hard not to make the team
2. Sarfate/Albers - slight edge to Albers here, whomever makes the team out of ST will be on a short leash and shouldnt be employed here when Lebron/Erbe/Arrieta/Mikolio are ready.
3. Tillman/Hernandez/Berken whoever pitches the best ends up in the rotation, the worst goes to AAA and the middle guy goes to the pen.
How does this sound Roch?
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Pretty good. I definitely agree about Meredith. I don't see Erbe or Arrieta going to the bullpen. - Roch
Hey Dunk, my birthday too....9-10 hr day also, well, I'm
just thankful to have a job!
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Happy Birthday, Steve! - Roch
Ohman?? Good to see Defensive Dave will be handing out jobs like candy once again, just like last year!
My bullpen PLAN:
Koji
Merideth
Hendrickson
Kam
DH
Johnson
Gonzalez
Im pretty excited to see how Kam Mikolio pitches this spring. There were points where he was just unhittable last season. I stood next to him at fan fest and he seemed like he was 8 feet tall. I think he is going to be our closer in 2012 and beyond.
Masterchefy: You said a week or 2 ago that you were done with me. Now you are trying to engage me once again.
You change your mind more than Andy!
What's your plan Masterchef? You COMMUNICATED one plan and then embarked on another.
All the posters so far seem to be sleeping on Mickolio. Am I missing something here? I recall in August of last year when we were saying the kid has 'closer' stuff and now we're writing him off the team. What gives?
Roch,
This really belongs with the last thread.
Assuming the O's go with 13 position players, we have the starters {who are all givens at this point}, a utility IF, a backup catcher and two others. Of the two others, at this point it seems a given that they will be Pie & Wiggington. Since I don't think either the utility IF or backup catcher spots will be the type of hitters you would want to pinch hit with, do you think we need a right handed and left handed bat for these two spots?
I think it may be more appropriate to have the backup corner infielder be a left handed bat. This way when Adkins & Tejeda are given a day off, you can bring in a left handed hitter against a tough right handed starting pitcher. If Aubrey or Hughes fill this spot, Adkins can play 3rd when Tejada is rested. If Moore fills this spot, he can play either 1st or 3rd.
The problem is, you don't have a right handed bat to spell Scott at DH.
It makes me nostalgic for the days when teams went with 10 and 11 man pitching staffs {or heaven forbid a 9 man staff}.
===
OK, back to the subject of this thread. Neither Berken nor Hernandez have any experience relieving in the minors. Do you think this will be a problem should they be assigned to the O's bull pen? or should they first go to Norfolk's pen to gain some experience?
Baldy
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The only reason to put them in the Orioles' bullpen is because they're not deemed ready for the rotation and could gain more major league experience by staying at this level. And perhaps the move works more to their strengths. If they're in Triple-A, they're in the rotation. - Roch
Hmm, with Gonzalez, Johnson, Uehara and Hendrickson holding their respective slots, I would say that Mickolio is a shoe in as long as he is 100% which he definitely should be. I would also add in there Hernandez which would leave one remaining slot between Berken, Albers, Sarfate, Meredith etc. In all honesty, unless Sarfate comes out looking comlpetely dominant, I would lean more toward the more polished guys to balance out the pen. A healthy Albers would fit really well, but his consistency since coming over to Baltimore has been troubling to say the least.
So, I'd prefer Albers(if pitching well). Meredith would probably follow him on the list, followed by Berken and then Sarfate.
On a side note, I guess the idea that the #5 slot is open to competition makes sense specifically to give ST some more competition between the SPs which will in turn make them better, but if Tillman isn't the one walking away with the slot, I certainly won't agree with it. Hernandez is a bullpen arm, I dont see much to dispute about that. He has a great fastball and between the changeup and slider, there is a good chance that during game time, he will find a way to make atleast one of his secondary pitches work for him on a given day, but he doesn't have enough consistency to be a ML SP. So, blocking Tillman with Hernandez to me wouldn't be much different than blocking Tillman(in the rotation) with Mark Hendrickson, a pitcher who will not be part of the O's future rotation.
Berken OTOH is kinda like the polar opposite. He doesn't have a great FB, but he has a very good feel for pitching, good command and average, but consistent secondary pitches. Honestly, I would hate to block Tillman with him also, it is pointless to me. Tillman needs to improve his command, if he can improve that enough, he will become that TOR SP we have heard he could become since we first traded for him. Sure Tillman needs to give up less HR(and fly balls) and get more K's, but all of those aspects were weaknesses of him in 09 due to his command not being very good.
I agree with No Dot Craig. Kam Mickolio has looked brilliantly intimidating at times with the Tides, and he was solid with the O's last year. I think he has the potential to be an excellent big league reliever, maybe a top-notch closer.
Tillman is probsbly going to be the 5th starter. Meredith, Mickilio and David Herdandez round out the pen. Should b a good battle though with Albers, Sarfate and Castillo...possibly sneaking in if they have a great ST. Will be intersting to see how Sarfate reacts to his ordeal with getting designated for assignment and clearing waviers. See if it motivates him to show what he did in Mexico this winter was not a fluke. Have you made you surprise pick to stick for ST yet Roch? Last year we both picked Hennessey remember? I have not yet decided.
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I'm trying to forget that I picked Hennessey. I'll give it some more thought and make my pick before leaving for Sarasota. - Roch
If your worried about hidden fees for bags DRIVE!!!
Roch, thanks for your wishes last week as I sat in my hospital room. Feeling a little better, still hurts alot, and I have trouble walking...but the surgery was a success, plus the meds they have me on help!! Anyway, my pen would look like this as of now:
Gonzalez
Johnson
Uehara
Mickolio
Meredith
Hendrickson
Hernandez
Print it!
Thanks Roch
Thought Patton was shut down early because he experienced some arm soreness again later on in the season and that was the reason for his "hitting the wall."
Even if Patton doesn't work out and ever pitch in the majors, that Miggy trade did work out okay for us. We got some much needed power and some decent production from Luke Scott, we got some innings out of Albers and Sarfate and both looked good at times. And Mike Costanzo; well...he wasn't much to begin with. On the other hand Miggy didn't have that wonderful of a first season with the Astros, his power went downhill, he got two years older right after we traded him, and there is the whole HGH/PED issue with him as well.
Hey Roch,
I still stick with what I previously Posted except that I think that If Tillman doesnt make the rotation that it will be Hernandez in his place with Tillman in Triple A and Albers will take Hernandez's spot in the bullpen and Berken will stay in Triple A unless he has a unbelieveable spring which I doubt will happen.
Rotation:
Millwood
Guthrie
Bergesen
Matusz
Tillman/Hernandez
Bullpen:
Sarfate
Hendrickson
Uehara
Meredith
Hernandez/Albers
Mickolio
Johnson
Gonazlez
Triple A Rotation
Arrieta
Erbe
Patton
Berken
(Tillman)
Hey Roch, I have some additional information on the Japanese pitcher, Hisa Takahashi. According to Sanspo, he wanted two things: one, a guaranteed big league contract and a commitment to be a starting pitcher. All this stuff about signing with the Dodgers or Giants is blue smoke and mirrors. Sanspo is saying Pittsburgh may be interested, but he apparently threw in front of some scouts in Arizona today - no word on that. It makes perfect sense. The Orioles would not agree to his demands; so, they moved on to other players. As you get ready to head for Florida, please accept my best wishes for a successful trip. Your School of Roch should give itself a Masters Degree in being able to create something out of nothing and remain interesting when there is no news.
Brummie_Oriole said:
Ohman?? Good to see Defensive Dave will be handing out jobs like candy once again, just like last year!
Masterchefy: You said a week or 2 ago that you were done with me. Now you are trying to engage me once again.
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Go Masterchefy!!!
Geez, Brummie, Melewski smacks you down, Roch has put you in your place numerous times yet you still keep chugging along. You're such a clever, clever boy!
By the way, how are things going on getting those "articles" you have "written" to Roch? Because, you know, you're a "journalist". LOL
Roch,
Even if you decide not to post this I wanted to make sure that you at least saw it. Steve Melewski has now jumped to my must read list:
Brummie_Oriole said:
Actually Steve I was being sarcastic and cynical, two literary tools that are probably banned from the Oriole press corp. LOL
______________________
Laugh all you want. Don't you get it man. You've just been so constantly critical of everything that most just skip past what you write. You seem to want constant attention to your posts.
What you don't get is when you rip everything, everyday, it is screaming out that you just have an agenda. If you choose to be funny, cynical or sarcastic, or ever have a legit criticism, how could anyone ever tell that from the usual shtick??? You've boxed yourself into a hole......Steve
Well Roch, consider yourself lucky. I just had power restored at noon today and it went out Friday night. I've decided that I like being warm, but at least I didn't have to worry about the food spoiling, my entire house was a fridge.
As far as Berken and Hernandez, I'd be inclined to keep them in the rotation in Norfolk and bring them up if there is an injury, whether it is a starter or reliever. They may both eventually end up in the pen, but I don't think we're so deep on starters that we should give up on them just yet, especially Hernandez.
I'd better go fill up may bathtub in advance of tomorrow's snow. :-o
People have been quick to dismiss Albers, but he could be a very useful bullpen member. He was excellent in 2008 prior to injury, and even last year he was better than most say. His BABIP last year was unusually high (.355), and his groundball rate was near 50% - just about the same as Johnson and Bergesen. He also did very well at keeping the ball in the ballpark (3 HR in 67 IP). If he's healthy and pitching well in spring training, he could be a solid piece of our bullpen this year.
I'd like to see Hernandez in the bullpen, too. Koji pitches to contact, and we have lots of options for guys who are groundball pitchers (Albers, Meredith, Johnson). It makes sense to me to balance that out with an arm or two more adept at swinging strikes and fly balls.
sarfate and albers will bounce back from injuries from a couple of yrs ago and return to top form. guthrie, scott and another player (from the minors) will be traded for a quality first baseman, atkins goes to dh, berken goes into the starting rotation and hernandez goes to the bullpen. 79 in boca tomorrow. enjoy the snow
Stallion said:
Brummie, Im proud of you, ever since I called you out for being negative all the time, you are actually starting to sound like a true orioles fan....
STALLION......I think Brummie is my IDOL !!!!!!
From the title I thought this was going to be a story about the Cleveland Browns.
I say Koji doesn't go north with the team. Meredith is almost a lock for the pen and I say keep either Hernandez or Berkin as a long guy/spot starter.
To Brummie:
Actually, if you read my comeback post, I said that I would argue baseball points with anyone, including you. I also said that I was going to do my best to stick to baseball points and not go back to personal attacks. I allowed my anger and frustration with you to let me write things that are inconsistent with how I would act in a face-to-face meeting, and so I am trying very hard to avoid that. I know that I have been disrespectful to you personally in the past, and for that I apologize. However, do not expect me to stop criticizing you when I think you are wrong.
Now, which part of what I wrote in response to your recent posts referred to communicating some sort of plan? I believe that all I have done over the past few days was disagree with various points you made, and explained why I disagreed with them. In fact, if you go back to the post you made regarding your 10 positive things about the Orioles, I only disagreed with two of them. I think that I have been rational and evenhanded in my explanations.
So, back to your post directed squarely at me. Which part of my grand "what would I do if I were named GM of the Orioles" plan do you want me to talk about? Give me something specific and I'll be more than happy to tell you what I think should be done. Keep in mind that my plan evolves based on new information and what I say today is likely different than what I said in October, and will likely be different than what I will say in July at the trading deadline. Still, I'd love to answer your direct questions. Please ask me some, as it gives me a chance to see how many people agree with me and how many disagree, and why. Thanks.
Roch:
Suppose Josh Bell comes to ST, and knocks Andy's and DT's socks off? What happens to Miggi??? Just sayin'------
There are alot of possiblities of who is going to be in the bullphen this season. It really depends on who will have the best performence this spring. This is a "may the best man win" sceneiro. I know that Gonzalez, Johnson, Uehara, and Hendrickson are pretty much locks for the first 4 spots with Mickolio, Albers, Meredith, Sarfate, Castillo, Berken, and Hernandez competing for the last 3 spots. I really like Mickolio's potential, and Meredith can give you a good consistent 65 appearances a season. Hernandez/Sarfate both have a great fastball, but never proved to be a true ML pitcher. This is my rotation/bullphen:
Rotation:
Millwood
Guthrie
Bergesen
Matusz
Tillman
Bullphen:
Gonzalez
Johnson
Uehara
Hendrickson
Mickolio
Meredith
Hernandez/Sarfate
Keep up the great work, Roch. Pitchers and Catchers report in about a week. Go O's.
According to Morosi, Ohman signed to minor league deal...
http://twitter.com/jonmorosi
Enjoy spring training
IMO the O's should put the better pitching prospect out of spring training, either Berken or Hernandez, in the bullpen to start the season and the guy who isn't pitching as well at Norfolk as a starter. Doing this gives the O's some ready available depth if one of the starters comes down with a sore arm or poor performance by the end of April which almost always happens.
Did you see this on ESPN?
DET prefers infielder over Damon?
12:31 PM ET
Detroit Tigers Top Email Late last month there were reports that suggested the Detroit Tigers were in the market for an infielder, someone they could fall back on in case Scott Sizemore or Brandon Inge need more time to recover from injury than originally expected.
Some of the names mentioned included Orlando Hudson and Adam Kennedy, both whom have inked deals elsewhere. But there are a few available that could fit in Detroit if all they are seeking is a part-time player.
Nomar Garciaparra told WEEI that he wants to play another year and could fit in Motown in the right role. Aaron Boone is available, as are Robb Quinlan and Joe Crede.
First base types Hank Blalock and Russell Branyan are still free agents, too, but the Tigers may be more likely to try and deal a reliever due to a plethora of southpaws in their bullpen, including Bobby Seay and the newly-acquired Phil Coke and Daniel Schlereth. We wrote earlier today that the Baltimore Orioles may look to deal infielder Ty Wigginton -- perhaps the Tigers are a match.
Hey if they wanna give us Daniel Schlereth strait up for Ty Wigginton ill take it right now, wouldnt you?
Glad to see the ladies are back at it. I missed you mstrchef13, welcome back. I am sure if you ever left someone would miss you to brum-skie.
A couple things that seem HIGHLY likely...
... Millwood will be #1
... Guthrie will not be #2
... Guthrie won't even care...
to quote Jim Kelly "when it happens i'll be too busy looking good"
(anyone know the movie?)
... Tillman will be the #5
... Hernandez and Berken (grouped again) will be in AAAA
You say Millwood, Guts, Bergy, Tillman, Matusz, Gonzo, Johnson, Hendrickson, Uehara are locks. How sure are we Uehara will be healthy?
We are left with... Wilfrido Perez, Cla Meredith, Matt Albers, Kam Mickolio, Dennis Sarfate, Alberto Castillo and Mike Hinckley.
1. Cla Meredith gets one of my spots.
2. Kam and Safate will compete for one of my spots.
3. Albers gets the 3rd spot if he took the offseason seriously.
Castillo and Hinckley need to hope for injuries.
Anyone see who won the MASN Pick Em for the Superbowl? That guy is a friggin genius. I really look up to him he is my hero and he should be all of yours too...
Phatty said:
According to Morosi, Ohman signed to minor league deal...
http://twitter.com/jonmorosi
Enjoy spring training
February 8, 2010 11:04 PM
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Wow... you f-ed this up on two different boards! You are the weakest link! Buh-bye!