Wondering about Wieters (plus the Baysox plunge)
The Orioles clearly have their catcher of the present and future now solidly in place in Matt Wieters.
But one key question concerning Wieters for the 2010 season is this one - how heavy of a load can he carry in terms of games played?
If Wieters gets one day off per week, he would play in about 138 games. Last year, between Norfolk and Baltimore he played in 135 games, getting 495 at bats. He had 81 at bats as a DH. By my count, he made 114 starts at catcher during the 2009 season between both clubs.
The AL's best catcher, Joe Mauer of the Twins, played in 138 games in 2009, getting 523 at bats. But he appeared in just 107 games as a catcher, 28 as a DH and five as a pinch hitter. He did miss the month of April due to injury.
In 2008, Mauer appeared in a career-high 146 games and made 135 starts at catcher.
How do the O's balance wanting Wieters back there at catcher, where he is a solid defender and has a big arm, with giving him time off or at bats as a DH to keep him fresh and effective for the entire year?
The fact that Wieters was getting better in September last season is probably a good sign that the 24-year-old can carry a heavy load.
Even knowing that, I'd wonder if the O's still want to be cautious with such a young talent and use Mauer's 2009 games played as a model.
Wieters might turn out to be a great hitter, he sure looks to be on his way, but what makes him really special is that he's playing the premium position of catcher.
The O's will have someone catching that can hold his own with most in the league on defense, while exceeding most of them (some by a large margin) on offense.
When fans point out that the Orioles don't have a 40-homer guy, they might be correct. But most clubs don't have a two-way weapon at catcher that the O's have. And he is just starting his career.
The club, in my opinion, still needs to be a little cautious with Wieters and give him proper rest throughout the year to enhance his chance to stay healthy and productive from game one all the way to game 162.
What are your thoughts on how the club should use Wieters this year? While on this topic, just how good can he be on offense in 2010? Can Wieters one day soon challenge the great Mauer for AL catching supremacy?
When snow cancelled a portion of the Polar Bear Plunge recently, the Bowie Baysox seemingly had missed out on their chance to get wet, freezing cold and raise money for Special Olympics.
Well, that didn't keep them from their mission. Click here to see Tom from the Baysox PR department take the "Baysox Plunge."
Great job by Tom and everyone on the Baysox staff!
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Categories (click for archive)Orioles News | Steve Melewski |
For all of the preseason hype about Wieters last year, it seems that a lot of people are (at least slightly) overlooking him this off season. While Wieters didn't approach the .357 he hit in a few levels (in one of the better minor league seasons ever) in his first season in the bigs, he put up better numbers than most catchers, and improved as the season went on.
Wieters numbers got better while the lineup declined, with Reimold and Jones out (as well as Huff- even if he didn't come close to replicating his numbers from the year before). Watching people toss out lineup ideas, I actually kind of like the prospect of Wieters batting cleanup. With (presumably) Markakis batting ahead of him, and someone like Tejada or Reimold batting behind him (I really like Jones in the two spot) he'd have exponentially more protection than he did when he was batting late in the lineup most of last season. Add that to the comfort of having more experience in the majors than he did in AAA, and I'm very excited about the season that Wieters could have.
A very interesting aspect of how Wieters could be used this season is the effect that he could have on the DH position. I think that Wieters will be one of the better hitters for the O's this season, so it will probably be beneficial to keep him in the lineup as much as possible. It will be interesting how that effects the at bats for guys like Scott, Pie and even Wiggington. Trembley might have his hands full getting some guys at bats, but compared to years past, it's a good problem to have.
I'm looking foward to seeing Wieters development this season, and would like to see him in the lineup one way or the other at least 150 times this season.
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Some good points, Kellogg's, especially how he thrived late while many others were out or were not hitting that much.......Steve
I'd like to see Wieters start behind the plate around 120-130 games. Maybe DH him 15-20 games. Rest him or use him as a PH'er for the remainder of the games.
As far as Matt's bat goes, I'm expecting to see
more power but I won't count on his numbers to jump off the chart this season.
If Wieters can come anywhere close to challenging Mauer's supremacy, I think we'll be very pleased for many years to come.
Unless the Orioles have three catchers on the 25 man roster, whenever Wieters is the DH there is the risk of the Orioles losing the DH if Wieters has to catch later in the game. Certainly this is not a common occurrence; however, with catcher being the highest contact position on the field it definitely a possibility. In terms of Wieters developing into a power hitter, in his brief minor league career, there has been a learning curve for him to adapt to the changes and challenges of each level. At all levels of the minor league system, he has met those challenges and adapted to the changes presented to him. He appears to be willing to take guidance and this willingness will hopefully show others on the team that they too may improve by listening to others.
I believe Guthrie pitches better with Moeller behind the plate, so that should be a built in 30+ games off behind the plate for Wieters. Then he'll have another 5 games off due to day night games. Then find ways to get him back to back days off by either sitting him the game before an off day or DH'ing him on those days. That should bring him in around 120 games behind the plate, plus another 10-15 at DH.
Steve, you are forgetting that the reason that Mauer played so few games last season is that he was injured in April. He didn't start his season until May 1.
If not for that, Mauer would likely have caught another 18 or so games and DHed another couple, for a total of about 125 games at catcher and 30 at DH.
I think that would be a reasonable workload for Wieters. It gives him approximately 5 games per week at catcher, another game or two each week at DH, and a day off (besides the scheduled days off) about once or twice a month.
If he hits high enough in the order, it should get him about 650 PA, which is exactly what we need from our best hitters if we want to have any chance to contend going forward.
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Very good point. I did mention he played 146 games in 2008, but did leave out that was his career high. Your projected numbers for Wieters look pretty good to me.
Steve
Hopefully Caleb Joseph can come up next year ad be that cathcer that fills in for the other 40 games or so.
Do you think that the Orioles will start using Caleb at first and third too so when and if he gets to the majors he can be that Brandon Inge type player? Ive have read that he's built like a Short Stop do you think that he could work out there?
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Caleb was an infielder in high school and did not catch regularly until he got to college. But remember every team needs two catchers, at least and there are no plans now to move him anywhere.......Steve
While I agree that the O's should be somewhat cautious with Wieters to keep him healthy, this is also professional baseball. You get paid the big bucks to play in games.
Sure it's common nowadays to give players rest in this sport every once in a while, especially catchers. And it's very reasonable to say not every single star player plays 162 games per season as well. Even Albert Pujols gets a day to relax once or twice a year. Having said that, IMO, when he gets a day off, it should be from behind the plate. Day games after night games, DH him.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against him getting five or six games off completely throughout the season. But he's also got a lot to learn and it's not going to happen missing 25 games a year.
How hard is DH? Why can't he catch 120 games and DH 30-40 games? 4AB at DH require running hard to 1st base once or twice, occasionally running hard to 2nd base, and occasionally having to run hard around the bases when the batter behind you hits. Over the course of a 3-hour game?
There is no reason he can't DH the majority of the games he is not catching.
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I think he will DH some when not catching, but also think he needs some legit days off to get a complete break from the rigors of catching. That day he may need to PH late in a close game, you might have to do that to try and win. Of course if you give him off in a 10-2 win or loss, he would be off the whole day. There's also the fact it's good to have a mental day of rest as well from such a demanding position......Steve
You can't use Mauer's '09 season as a comparison for two reasons. (1) He was hurt the month of April, so its not like they limited his PT all year... when he was healthy he was pretty much in the lineup. (2) Mauer was the AL MVP. As good as we KNOW Wieters is going to be, its too early to put him in that elite group. Comparisons like that might make him press, which he is not immune to as we found out last year. Its his first full season... I want him to improve and wait off on comparing him to the best active catcher until he hits above .300 with power numbers for a full year.
Anyway... that being said I want him up in the lineup and I would love to see him DH when he's not behind the plate. I know its a little bit risky to do so since if you lose Moeller to injury you have to then insert the pitcher into the lineup; but its a risk I'd be willing to take. I want Wieters bat in there nearly every single game.
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Yeah, I did need to clarify that about his 2009 season and I have now added a bit to the story to reflect that. I did add that in 2008 he played in a career-high 146 games and then he made 135 starts catching. Thanks for pointing that out.. I should have caught that the first time.....Steve
Steve,
Players are way too babied these days. This would have never been a question about Bench, Munson, Jim Sundberg, Fisk, Dempsey among others. I believe Matt will be regarded in the same mold as those along with Mauer and the catcher in Atlanta (McCann).
Kellogg - Jones does not bunt, does not have great bat control, does not walk a lot, strikes out, yet you among many others keep suggesting him to be our 2 hitter!!!
-Is there something I'm missing here?
Jones is Power and Speed and the ONLY guy that makes sense hitting 4th with the present personnel.
And if Jones hits 4th, then Weiters should be hitting 5th.
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I also believe Jones should bat second. I keep remembering his first two months last year when he took more pitches and was hitting to all fields and know he is capable of that. His OBP in April was .433 and it was .369 in May.
I also like the Roberts and Jones speed at the top creating havoc on the bases and scoring ahead of the middle of the order bats. Plus the second time thru you have Izturis, Roberts and Jones, three speed guys in a row. Sure Jones has pop but on a team lacking the old-school traditional type number two hitter, I think that is the best spot for him.........Steve
Mauer got 489 AB's in his first full season. I think Wiets can handle 525. The O's need to get him as many AB's as possible. He should DH and be given a full day off once per week. This should keep him fresh all season. Wiets has the makeup to be the best C of all time not just better than Mauer. He's bigger & stronger than Mauer who has never knocked in more than 100 runs. This prediction is coming from a chronic O's basher...ask Steve !
Steve,
Maybe 100 to 110 games behind the plate and 30+ at DH? It would be nice if he can do more than jog to first in 10 years. He could be the right handed bat to give Scott off against tough lefties.
Have you heard any talk from the O's regarding an eventual move from behind the plate for Wieters some time in the future?
Baldy
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I would hope and expect any talk of moving to another position doesn't come until he is at least into his 30's..........Steve
In all honesty the more abuse he takes in his first two or three seasons, the greater the chance he faces problems down the road with knee and hip issues. For every I-Rod or Joe Mauer, there are Jason Veritek's, Sandy Alomar's, Charles Johnson's of the world. Catchers can only log so many innings behind the plate before thier legs go out.
If the Orioles take it easy on him at 24-28 years of age, they could get solid production in his prime salary years. The last thing the Orioles need is paying extreamly high prices for talented catchers that lost their prime because of the physical nature of the position.
The Orioles front office and coaching staff have to weigh long term options versus short term returns. Is it worth hurting his value to the club in his early 30's to place a few more seats in the stands for a club that is barely scraping around .500?
It is best to limit him to 4-5 day weeks. He is bigger than most catchers in the history of baseball and more weight barring down on those joints. It was one of my early thoughts to try a B.J Surhoff role with him as soon as he was drafted. He looks athletic enough in workouts to see him 3-4 days as catcher, one day on a corner, and one at DH.
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Interesting, Don. Good point about pushing him too hard now and wondering what impact that has later. I'm sure that has at least been discussed in meetings among the top O's brass.......Steve
Steve, Stating the very obvious, Wieters is a big, strapping kid who should be able to play plenty of games. Granted, he'll need his breathers, either DH's or starting games on the bench.
I say starting games on the bench because certainly pinch hitting duties can never totally be ruled out if the need arises, even on days off.
I think BCK has it about right with 125 games catching and 30 as DH, although I could see adding a few more as catcher and a few less at DH, say 130 and 25, respectively.
Do you have any idea where Dave Trembley's normally going to hit Wieters in the lineup this year? Maybe sixth? I saw or read one interview (maybe with you) earlier this offseason, where he seemed to even leave open the possibility of Matt hitting cleanup. Not like he said that Wieters was being pencilled in to that slot, but more along the lines that if Wieters (or Nolan Reimold) is hitting well enough in the spring it could pose the kind of problem he likes to have as a manager in deciding who should hit there.
And more recently Dave said he likes the flexability he has with his young hitters. I hope they hit well enough to give a little trouble in making up his lineup cards.
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I think the two thru six hitters in the lineup are pretty interchangeable. Trembley said recently that he would not be against batting one of the young guys fourth. To me that indicates Wieters will probably be up there somewhere four, five or six.......Steve
Nice article Steve; I agree with you and most who posted. I think 115-125 games behind the plate is fine with the rest filling in as DH/PH. But you know what you'll hear from the whiners. Remember last year when Trembley sat Wieters out once a week and/or day games after a night game, the whiners cried it wasn't fair to the fans who bought tickets to be at the park and not see Wieters play. Who do you think has the inside track for the backup catcher spot at this pre-spring training time? I personally like Moeller as a backup. Also, what do you expect to see for Caleb Joseph if his talent progresses like most say it will; back up or more valuable as trade bait?
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I think Moeller is the clear favorite for backup catcher and it's his job to lose, as they say.
Caleb has said he'd like to be Wieters backup for the next 20 years. The kid has a great attitude, that's for sure. Right now they'll just see what he does this year at Double-A Bowie. As this article points out, unlike any other position, catcher can really use a dependable number two guy since the starter probably will not start 30 or more games.......Steve
Steve,
We have a perfect number 2 guy in Markakis. Trouble is, he's our best hitter and therefore should probably hit 3rd.
And as for Jones first 2 mo's of the season, the biggest thing I remember is he had something like 15 dingers and if not for the second half slump and injuries should have led the team in Slugging.
Speed at the top of the order is great, but it doesnt hurt in the middle of the lineup either. Tejada and Markakis are not going to clogg the bases and I like the idea of Jones as a speedy lead off hitter in the second if we go 1-2-3 in the first.
And lastly, a Righty at 4 allows us to balance our lineup perfectly:
S Roberts
R Tejada
L Markakis
R Jones
S Weiters
R Reimold
L Scott
R Atkins
S Izturis
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I hear you, but am just not convinced that four is the spot for him now. I also thought he got a little homer conscious in the second half and that hindered him a bit. My preference is second with him just concentrating on driving the ball and scoring runs and some homers will surely come........Steve
If Joseph develops into a major league caliber catcher (both offensively and defensively), how about the idea of having Wieters and Joseph cover C/1B/DH for 150 games each, with the team carrying a third catcher who can also play OF or 1B to pick up the extra 15 starts at catcher plus pinch hitting for Izturis (or whoever the SS is in 2012)? I think it would be a great way to extend both of their careers and prevent Wieters from becoming Piazza. I know it's a radical idea, but just one of many rambling around in my head.
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It's a little radical, but interesting thought. They are a ways away from any thought like that with Caleb just going to Double-A this year. By the time they could even think about that Snyder or someone else could be firmly entrenched at first......Steve
he's big, strong and got paid a lot of money before he ever played a game. i'd think you'd want him to start about 130 games at catcher and another 15 as dh. that should give over 500 at bats.
I always thought that it was going to be difficult to keep a 6'5" catcher healthy while behind the plate. It would be a shame to pull such a good defender away from his natural position, but putting him at first base would sure save his knees. Not sure that I agree with this, certainly not yet, but its a valid point. He might have a lot more focus on hitting if he didnt go through pain and injuries from catching day in and day out.
Just a thought, not a suggestion.
I can see a senario where if Joseph wows us in the next few years, he and Wieters split the innings at C about 60/40, while the other is the DH. Currently, as much as I like Luke, if we could get a good return for him, I would much rather have a rotating DH, kind of like a rest for our regulars. That would give Pie, and Aubrey more AB's, and if Bell comes up this year, he and Miggy could get some of the DH AB's too.
Steve asked: "Can Wieters one day soon challenge the great Mauer for AL catching supremacy?"
Wow--let the kid put up a full MLB season before you begin comparing him to one of the best catchers of all time.
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Just asking the question. And you are way too late, he's been compared and linked often to Mauer, long before I ever did it.........Steve
Hello Steve, here's my take on Weiters, give him rest of a least 2 days off catching. let the back-up do his thing and have Matt play the DH role to keep him fresh. if Dave T. will do this when the season starts. he will remain fresh and rested. the same could be said of the other position players so no should be over taxed during the season. Prof.Baseball is a long season. 6 months during the regular season not counting the games played in ST.
Steve, another great article and topic for discussion.
I like the idea of limiting the number of games Matt catches this year and in the future. There's no reason to drive your Ferrari like a madman 24/7. Take good care of it and it'll take you a long ways in style.
120-130 games at C would be good. One day a week at DH would give him another another 26 games in the starting lineup - if I'm counting my weeks correctly on the Orioles schedule. Again, if I'm counting correctly, there are 10 Mondays off during the season. DHing him on those Sundays (the proverbial "day game after a night game" would essentially give him 2 days off 10 times during the season. That ought to keep him fresh.
There are a few stretches in July and August, that he'll need a day off now and then. There are 17 straight games after the All-Star Break followed by a day off and 20 straight to begin August. That's 37 games in 38 days, during the hottest time of the year.
In opposition to what RichD posted, its not about how tough you are. Playing such a demanding position wears on you. I think if you were to check the numbers, you'll see that Bench was "handled" to get the most out of him, both in the short and long terms. The most games he started at C in his career was his rookie year, 1968, 139 games. He caught between 115-139 for 11 of his 17 seasons. You'll also find that he played 182 games at 3B over 8 years (103 in 1982!) and 98 games at 1B and 96 in the OF (including 2 STARTS in CF!).* The Reds definitely squeezed everything they could out of him.
Of the other guys mentioned, Sundberg caught over 140 games 6 times. Fisk, twice. Munson, once. Dempsey, zero. And they weren't quite so versatile. Since the DH wasn't available they mostly 1B and OF. Fisk played the most at DH (166 games in his 24 seasons), followed by Munson (77) and Dempsey (22).
I think the O's would be wise to take a cautious approach with such a talent at a premier position. I'd rather have 10 years of really good Matt, than 3 of "he coulda been great if he had just been able to avoid being injured all the time".
*Stats courtesy of Baseball-Reference.com.
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Like the Ferrari comparison SoBo. Another good point about DHing him with an off day to follow, kind of like extra rest........Steve
Big props to Tom and the Baysox group for keeping their pledge!
Matthew Carruth over at FanGraphs.com posted an interesting article the other day (Feb 2nd). It had to do with the number of different lineups the Cleveland Indians/Eric Wedge used last year. Wandering my way to Baseball-Reference.com like he did, I found that Dave Trembley used 132 different lineups last year. Yes, 132! Here's the lineup that was used most often:
1-Roberts
2-Jones
3-Markakis
4-Huff
5-Wigginton
6-Scott
7-Zaun
8-Pie
9-Izturis
The number of times it was used? Five. Yes, five. Interesting.
Now at the risk of looking silly by pointing out how pointless it is to offer a lineup, I'll offer one (vs a RHP) with my reasons for each.
1-Roberts, one of the best lead-off hitters in the game
2-Markakis, good bat control, lefty who can take advantage of the hole created by holding Roberts (or Izturis) on base, lefty also obscures man on first from the catcher and also presents an obstacle for him to throw around. Despite his SB numbers the last two years (10 and 6), I think he could easily surpass his total of 18 in 2007 given the chance.
3-Reimold, solid power and more importantly, patient. Also has some speed as evidenced by his 8 steals in 10 attempts last year.
4-Scott, streaky schmeeky. Last year he had 350 PAs in the #6 spot and had a triple-slash line of .298/.377/.592. Not that Huff was producing all that much before he was traded, but I contend that Huff afforded Scott the chance to be himself. Give Scott 450 PAs in the #4 spot with better protection (Jones and Wieters), I think he'll again be around 25 HRs. His RBI total should improve dramatically with speedy, on-base guys like Roberts, Markakis and Reimold ahead of him.
5 - Jones, until he shows he's more patient I'm sticking him here. With more patience, I could easily flip him with Reimold.
6 - Wieters, his September numbers give you a hint of what he can do.
7 - Tejada, will offer nice protection to Wieters though he probably wouldn't be happy about me batting him this low. Lucky for him, I considered putting him 8th! They'll need his doubles from this position to score Scott and Wieters if they didn't knock themselves in already.
8 - Atkins, nice to have a 15-20 HR potential guy in the #8 slot. Would actually prefer him at #7, but...
9 - Izturis, he's in there for his glove. Anything he provides offensively is a bonus.
Speed and on-base guys at the top. Power in the middle. Alternating sides (SLRLRSRRS). What's not to like?
Here's hoping my lineup gets used 7 or 8 times this year!
Fair enough Steve, but no question is truly innocent--and this one does a lot more than pose a question. Even if it's been previously asked, it's still not a realistic or truly thought-provoking question. It simply recycles the hype machine that began the moment he received his record bonus.
In reality, all Wieters has really proved is that he can hold his own as an everyday catcher in the MLB. Yes, he's shown tremendous potential. And as O's fans, we all have great hope for his future. But maybe we should save this discussion for 3-4 years from now, when he's actually approached what Mauer has accomplished. You know--staying healthy, winning a few batting titles, carrying his team on his back to the post season, etc. Projecting a second-year player to challenge for "Hall of Fame" type greatness is serious hyperbole and it doesn't do anyone justice--even if he is Matt Wieters.
All being said, I really enjoy reading your work. Thanks for your response and keep up the good work.
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Appreciate the comments. I don't believe in overhyping someone either. Just writing to ask a question or two to stimulate some conversation while we await the start of spring and spring training games. Nothing more than that........Steve
Nice article Steve. I think Weiters will be one of Baseball's greatest catchers before his career is over. That being said, he has a long way to go. I like the idea of getting him as much rest as possible. He is a big guy and being a catcher will take its toll. Five days a week catching, 1 day at DH and one day off should help him stay around a long time. DH on Sunday and team day off on Monday will really be a benefit. If Caleb grows into the catcher we think he will, we will have the best two catchers in baseball. There is no reason we can't protect the catchers with ample time off.
I like SoBo's line up. A lot of thought put into it and makes a lot of sense.
I can't till next week. Baseball is about here.
Have a safe trip south Steve
Ray
Steve,
It is a pleasure to read comments that address the blog post.
Thank you.
After reading the comments, I think that during spring training the Orioles should determine which of the starting pitchers works best with the back up catcher, then let that battery be locked in for the season. This will insure Wieters does not catch every fifth game. Adding in a day off on a day game after a night should insure Wieters is kept fresh during the season. Depending on how well he is hitting should determine how often he is put in as the DH.
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I am not a big fan of "personal catchers" Rusty, but that would be one way to gaurantee Wieters gets a seat every now and then......Steve
I see a lot of comments about where to hit these players. They are major league players and should be able to adjust to whereever DT decides to hit them. One comment about Jones success in the 2-hole is that with Roberts on first he sees a lot of fastballs and that allows him to hone in on a good one and drive the ball. No curveballs or sliders in the dirt with a basestealing threat on first. That has to have a serious effect on Jones' approach while up there. So what he doesn't bunt, we don't need him to bunt. So what that we don't have a 40-hr guy. I'd rather have a group of line drive hitters who put the ball in play and knock it around the park than people who either hit it out or strike out. The odds are in our favor this way that we're going to make pitchers work and we're going to constantly have men on base. The higher OBP, the more runs you're going to score and many pitchers hate pitching out of the stretch. This gives us an advantage.
Steve-
Steve, Steve, Steve, Stevie. Weiters is 24. He could catch a game, drink a case of beer, "party" all night at the Playboy Mansion, and catch a doubleheader the next day.
We are old. He's fine with 130+.
Also, would you trade Tillman, Arrieta, Britton, Snyder, and Erbe for Lincecum? Just wondering what you thought the best pitcher in baseball is worth in trade. Again, assume you have 200 Million laying around to lock him up for the next 8 or 9 years.
Would you do that same 5 for Pujols?
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I would not trade those five in a five for one deal for Lincecum, maybe would at least think about it for Pujols. But that's not even a remote possibility so no sense even giving it one second of thought.......Steve
Steve,
As a Sunday plan season ticket holder, I want to selfishly hope that Wieters plays more Sundays than he did last year. I never understood why Sunday was a more likely day to rest players more than other days. A game day is a game day...right?
But to answer your question, I agree that he should catch most days, and DH on some days to keep him in the lineup. It was clear that as August and September came around, he really was getting into a groove. He can only build upon that if he's in the lineup, though I do agree regular rest won't hurt him. It's a fine balance, but I think Trembley will handle it (as well as the OF/DH rotation) well enough to keep a good offense going each day...
Justin
steve, here's a little food for thought, if caleb joseph keeps on developing
the orioles could probaly switch wieters to 1st, solving their first base issues for years and probaly extend wieters career considerably given the fact he's 6'5' and a catcher, what do you think?
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No, its way too early to even think about that. One of the reasons Wieters is such a great player is because he is a very good defensive catcher, who is also good on offense. It's something most teams don't have. (An offensive minded catcher). Wieters is just starting out, no reason to talk about moving him. Joe Mauer is a big catcher and Gold Glove winner and no one is talking about moving him right now.
Plus Wieters is considered better on defense with a stronger arm than Joseph. Caleb is a solid catching prospect, but no one in the organization is talking about moving Wieters because of him.......Steve