Cakes on Moose
We debated last week, right here at The School of Roch, whether Mike Mussina belonged in the Hall of Fame.
Who better to ask than a Hall of Famer who's seen him pitch plenty of times?
I just got off the phone with Jim Palmer, not realizing that he's on the West Coast and I was catching him pretty early in the morning. Not that he seemed to mind. Anyway, put down Palmer as a "yes" vote for Mussina's induction.
Palmer actually did a little research to aid his argument, placing a call to Elias and obtaining Mussina's ERA differential vs. the rest of the league during the former Orioles' career.
"He was 0.81. That's significant," Palmer said. "He was in the top five or six in his era. And he did pitch in the steroid era. He was pitching against cartoon characters. And he did pitch in a bandbox. Look what happened when Jamie Moyer got out of here. David Wells didn't want to pitch here. Sterling Hitchcock said they should bomb the place.
"Now, (Mussina) did play on some good teams early on, but he wasn't playing on great Oriole teams. Mike came up in '91 and he was a dominant pitcher of that era. He was the most consistent, along with maybe (Greg) Maddux. He pitched in the American League, which is arena baseball compared to the National League. Mike would have been even better if he had been over there."
The argument against Mussina is he's never won 20 games, though he'll go into Sunday's finale with 19, and hasn't won a Cy Young or championship.
"Twenty wins doesn't have the same cache as it once did," Palmer said. "If you came up in '91 and pitched 17 or 18 years, and they said you were going to be one of the top five pitchers year in and year out, you'd be pretty pleased, wouldn't you?"
Mussina's last start produced his 269th career win, moving him past Palmer on the all-time list.
"I always said I thought he was every bit as good as I was," Palmer said.
Palmer won three Cy Youngs. He has three World Series rings and eight 20-win seasons. But he's convinced that Mussina belongs in the same Cooperstown residence.
An interesting side note: Palmer recently asked Mussina if he's coming back next year. Mussina replied: "I don't think so."
"Of course, that could change," Palmer said.
His opinion of Mussina will not.
Should Mike Mussina be in the HOF?
Not at all.
0 Cy Youngs
0 perfect games
0 no-hitters
0 World Series Titles
0 MVPs
Nothing.
He played 18 years, 10 with Baltimore and 8 with New York. Ironically, the New York Yankees started out as the Baltimore Orioles.
During his time with the Birds:
Five-time all-star
(on a team that was an o.k. team except for ‘91 and 2000, the first and last years he was with them)
MVP voting twice
Cy Young voting 7 of 10 years
Lowest Team ERA 8 of 10 years
Average an 18% share of his team’s wins
During his time with the Yanks:
Never made the all-stars
MVP and Cy young voting only one year (2008)
Lowest Team ERA 4 of 8 years
Only one year had 18% share of his team’s wins (in 2008)
The biggest thing I noticed was the fact that his completed games dropped off significantly during his time with the Yankees as did quality starts, but his innings per year didn’t. He started more games, but won less. He won more than 50% of the games he started in Baltimore, but less than 50% in New York. Even with a better team, better pitching staff, and a much better General Manager, Mussina did not fair as well as he did with the Orioles.
Mussina averaged a win less per year with the Orioles, but almost a 3% share of wins more. The Yanks averaged 32 games above .500 when Moose played with them, but when he played with the Orioles, they averaged 3 games above .500. When you look at his post-season numbers, it’s more clear why Mussina is not a Hall of Famer. He can’t win when it counts, the post-season. He’s two games over .500 in the post season and faired the same no matter which team he played for.
He played in an era where 250 wins weren’t as important a milestone as 300 wins were. He played in an era where performance enhancers ran rampant. I have been saying for a long while that players need to prove they were clean since most are hiding behind the MLBPA and not speaking up about what went on. Especially when you play on teams that had so many PROVEN users, it’s not hard to speculate that Mussina could have pitched 200 innings per year due to a little “boost.”
When Mussina left the Orioles they sucked bad, but before that they were a decent team. He never had Ace numbers and had an excellent closing staff at New York. This one, to me, is a no brainer, and I live in Williamsport, PA.
Oh and BTW - the Yankees finally woke up and got rid of Giambi. Move Jeter to 1B, A-Rod to SS, and pick one of a bunch of guys who could play 3B within your own clubhouse. But they won't and Yankee fans will yell I'm an idiot... Been a while since you've been to the post-season... you may end up waiting a LONG time now...
nickfalvo.blogspot.com
twitter.com/nickfalvo
BC Mike--You say 300 wins is the only thing to bring Moose back for another season, but what about a World Series ring? Yes, it might not happen in New York (though contrary to what some think, I expect the Yankees to go after him--they need starting pitching and more than one starter), but consider this: You wrote that Joe Torre enticed him to sign with the Boss; maybe this time Torre sees if Mike would like a spot with the Dodgers. Stranger things have happened.
In Feinsteins book , Mussina indicates that as a Kid he was a Yankees fan. He was truly dissed by Angelos and was courted by Joe Torre immediately after things had soured after negotiations with the Orioles. It is not unreasonable that a Guy his age would be a Yankees fan...mid 70's was the resurgence. I don't think it is reasonable for a player to align himself with a fan perception. Joe Torre was aplayers manager and clearly the O's were going in a different direction at the time. Let's face it . He pitched his guts out for his employer and what a fitting end to his career should he hit twenty wins. Deep down, I believe he wants to try thr 300 thing..so he will probably see how his arm feels this winter ,then make a decision. If the Yanks regress and the potential to win 15 games is not there , he may move. He will have no reason to return except for the 300 thing.
One other interesting fact about Moose and the Hall.... in 8 of his 18 seasons the World Series Winner came from contenders in the AL East: (2 Toronto, 4 New York, 2 Boston). Not many pitchers have that on their resume and still put up the numbers Mussina has done.
To answer the questions about 1997 and 1998's staff:
Jon Miller was the announcer; Davey Johnson was the manager; Ray Miller was the pitching coach; and Pat Gillick was the GM. Their departure sparked the tailspin of 11-straight losing seasons.
I've seen managers make pitch selections throughout an entire game from the dugout. I don;t know how unorthodox or impractical this is, but given the performance of the pitching staff, can Ramon Hernandez be trusted to call a decent game? Can Wieters?
Jim Palmer was the best pitcher in the American League during the decade of the 1970s. Over that span he won 20 or more games eight times.
But without delving into minutiae, let's just look at how he fared in the Cy Young voting:
1970-AL-5
1972-AL-5
1973-AL-1
1975-AL-1
1976-AL-1
1977-AL-2
1978-AL-3
Looking at the years he didn't garner any votes, if we throw out '74, the only sub-.500 full season in his career and '79, when his starts were limited by an injury, then we're left with '71, a year Palmer only went 20-9, 2.68, 20 CGs, and appeared in the All Star Game--him not getting any Cy Young votes that year was nothing short of criminal.
And how special is winning three Cy Young Awards? Well, only six other pitchers ever won three or more: Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux. That's very elite company, indeed; it's company that puts him on the short list of greatest pitchers of all time. (Interesting sidebar: Palmer's first World Series victory was over Koufax, his last was over Carlton.)
While Mike Mussina is a great pitcher and I fully expect to see him voted into the Hall of Fame, clearly he's not quite in Jim Palmer's class. While Moose has often been considered one of the best pitchers in baseball, he never was considered the best over a season, much less for a decade. He did make the top five in CYA balloting on six occasions (like again this year), peaking at the runnerup positiion in 1999, when he went 18-7 or the Orioles. Along with Dave McNally (who also belongs in the HOF), Mussina has to be considered one greatest pitchers never to win the Cy Young (though he may have a few chances left).
Cy Young Award Scoreboard: Palmer-3, Mussina-0.
The idea that Mussina at 39 is too old to have a serious chance to reach 300 wins is ridiculous, especially the way he's pitched this year (one win away from his first 20 win season!). He's only 32 victories away from that goal, so unless there are serious health issues, he should not only make it, but make it easily--if he wants to pitch. He's bright enough and has such command of the strike zone as to be able to reinvent himself as finesse pitcher, something he's done to an extent this year (something Hank Steinbrenner was right in pushing). If hurlers like Maddux, Johnson and Jamie Moyer can still pitch effectively into their mid-40s, then why not Mike?
Quick question, Roch. It's not likely to happen, but were the Orioles to resign Mussina, what sort of reception do you think he'd get from the OPCY faithful?
(Interesting sidebar 2: Jim was picked to all-state high school teams in football, basketball and baseball, and he was offered a basketball scholarship to UCLA by John Wooden at the same time that Lew Alcinor/Kareem Abdul Jabbar was on the team.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly think the majority of fans would embrace him again. He wanted to stay here the first time, but felt disrespected. It's not like he was miserable in Baltimore. Just the opposite. - Roch
Roch
if you look on Orioles.com the pic that goes with the triple doubles article isn't right because the caption says it brian roberts, Nick Markakis, and Aubrey Huff but the pic is Brian, Brian, Aubrey.. so two Roberts and no Markakis... i got a laugh...
Roch, are the Oriole catchers in charge of pitch selection during games or does Tremblay sometimes make the call?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's usually the catcher's job. - Roch
Roch,
You have an insight about this that most of us don’t:
Do see any set of circumstances that would cause Mike Mussina to return to Baltimore to finish his career? I, for one, would like to see him end a Hall of Fame career in orange and black.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say that's an extreme long shot. Not saying I hate the idea, but I don't see it happening. - Roch
Moose should be thankful he didn't pitch in the the new Phillie's park if he thought Camden Yards was a bandbox. That place is really a joke.
I grew up with Mussina as the ace and was 14 when he left. I had no ill-will then and no ill-will now. I wish he could've won a world series, but I would never wish for the Yanks to win one. After all that, my initial reaction was "No, he just wasn' that dominant." But then I looked at his stats: career whip of 1.19, career ERA of 3.69 while pitching in Camden Yards for 8 years, and an average K/BB of 178/49. The lack of Cy Young, World Series or 20 win seasons shouldn't mean anything. His stats say that he was one of the best pitchers of the generation, so he should be in the Hall.
OriolesFan23 -- Moose had such a defining moment, with a definite WOW factor: the 1997 AL Championship Series. Although he didn't win a game during that series against the Indians, he turned in as dominating a pitching performance as any I've ever seen -- and in the league championship series, no less. See http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1997_ALCS.shtml. He basically toyed with the Indians, who had some pretty good players that year (Manny, Thome, Vizquel, Sandy Alomar, Jr, David Justice, Matt Williams, Brian Giles). In each game, the Os' offense was inept and the bullpen let him down.
Bill,
I started following the Orioles in 1965. I would guess that I know more about the history of the Orioles and follow them more closely than 90% of the people here.
As you point out Mussina was one of the best pitchers in team history. He wanted to sign here and would have for much less money than the Yankees gave him. I blame Peter Angelos. If you look at the 96 and 97 teams, they arguably had the best GM, manager, pitching coach, and announcer in baseball. Angelos got rid of all of them and this tean has not won since. Now Bill, if you can name those people it will tell me a little about your knowledge of this team and it's history.
Yes, baseball players have been greedy, but I don't believe Mike Mussina is someone you can lump into that equation. He was the best at what he did and in a free market he was paid for it. Problem is . . . . he should have never been allowed to enter the free market.
Hey Roch you failed to mention to your readers that you met two great looking married women on the way to New York who entertained you the entire 3 hours. You are an excellent writer and I enjoyed reading some of your blogs. Have a great weekend
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey! It was the best train ride of my life - much better than the return trip. Stay in touch! Miss ya both! - Roch
Money may have been a factor in Mussina leaving the Orioles after the 2000 season. But if you look back at July 2000, you'll recall that the Orioles traded away a veteran core of their players. Among the players who were traded away in July 2000 were BJ Surhoff, Mike Bordick, Harold Baines, and Charles Johnson. Cal Ripken was at the end of his career. If you were Mussina, would you have wanted to stay with that team?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll never forget how upset Mussina was after the Surhoff trade, which went down at the 4 p.m. deadline. Everyone thought Surhoff was staying. It was after 4 p.m. when word was passed to us. Players watched his farewell press conference as it was piped into the clubhouse, and Mussina shook his head in disgust and walked out. - Roch
Hard to get a better hall of fame advocate as a pitcher than Jim Palmer. As upset as I was when he left to play with the Yankees, he is an exceptional pitcher. I agree that Mussina was one of the best pitchers in his era and should make the hall of fame. Nevertheless, I think he will have to wait for several ballots(multiple years being considered but coming up short) to get in though because the lack of a Cy Young Award or a twenty game win season hurts. It is hard to get people to overlook such benchmarks.
On a somewhat related matter, I wish Jim Palmer could announce more of the orioles games. Does he not want to do more? I think his comments add a great deal to the broadcast and I especially like the fact that he tells it like it is.
Can anyone explain to me why Trembley pinch hit for B-Rob and Nick in the 9th last night? Anyone at all?
No comment! Oh, do I have to answer or will no comment be accepted? Well, since I don't like Mike Mussina as a man (for personal reasons), though I do like him as a MLB pitcher. I am a little concern about Jim Kaat, Bert Bylevian (spelled wrong) and others who should have made the hall, but did not. The questions remains, will Mussina make the hall. The ANSWER IS YES!
Roch, I'll always think this is one of the better debates for a basbeall fan, especially an O's supporter. I'm going to disagree with Cakes because of Mussina's lack of a wow factor. When I think of the Hall of Fame, I visualize consistent winning, but also a few memories that drop your jaw. That's why I think Sandy Koufax has a plaque in Cooperstown and you can visit a bust of Gale Sayers in Canton. I think Mussina was an excellent pitcher, but not a legend who deserves an immortal tribute.
This is in response to Ray's comment about how he doesn't understand why fans have resentment over Moose going to the Yanks.
I don't know your age, or how closely you followed the O's back in the 90s, but when the O's were actually good, the Yanks/O's rivalry was quite strong. Fans intense hatred for the situation with Maier, the Strawberry brawl, and a whole slew of other things really is what started O's fans to despise all things the Yankees stood for. Then Moose, who could arguably be one of the best O's pitchers to ever put on the uniform takes off and signs with the Yanks and is labeled a traitor. One could blame Angelos for not giving him the money he wanted, but still he choose the Yanks of all teams to go to. To me it really opened my eyes and made it sink in that players at the time didn't care about the repercussions of their choices, it was mostly whoever shows me the most money. His move just added to the flames, and there are many fans that will never forgive him for doing what he did. I remember watching the news conference of him putting on the pinstripes 35, and it just made me sick to my stomach, and madder than I've even been. It might have been 10 years ago, but for some it feels like yesterday.
Maybe some moose cakes would cheer everyone up.
No way is he in Palmer's league. Lets get real.
Still, Living on the Black is one of the better sports books I've read.
Roch, don't understand why you dont have all the comments you used to have at the Sun. Your blogs are just as good. Sorry to see that.
Part of the reason I started rooting for the Orioles in the 90s was due to Mussina. Like any starter, he had his maddening moments, but overall -- when he was pitching his best -- it was such a pleasure to watch. I never blamed him for leaving either, after the disappointment of two post-seasons, one wire-to-wire season with no WS appearance. In my book, the totality of his career makes him a good candidate for the Hall.
In a perfect world, Moose would come back to the Orioles for 2 more years before he retires, having 2 back to back 15+ win seasons, and earning his 300th win at the end of 2010, in a game that wins the Birds the pennant... No, I haven't been drinking yet today. Yes, I am thinking about starting.
I remember writing here at the beginning of the season that this year's team should primarily be judged on it's performance in August and September. Nothing else.
After a resounding win(16-8) on a Sunday afternoon, August 17th in Detroit, this team has not been the same. You may remember that game. If memory serves correctly we jumped to an early lead, our starter relinguished it, but the resiliency of the Orioles '08 came through again. The team hit five homeruns that day and Fernando Cabrera pitched three perfect innings for the win. I was feeling great about this team, only two games under .500 (61-63) and facing the challenge of going up against a difficult schedule in the final month and a half. Like many other Orioles fans, I was excited to see how this team would finish.
With three games remaining, the only thing certain about next year is that we will be selecting either 4th or 5th in the June Draft.
The team, as pointed out by JPA and CRB earlier today, has gone 6-28 since that Sunday game in Detroit. They are 4-18 in September. From August 22nd thru September 6th they were 1-14. They currently have a nine game losing streak and it would surprise no one to see that be 12(weather permitting) by Sunday.
Good teams . . . . improving organizations, show improvement as the season goes on. Dysfunctional is a good term to use for this organization. I do not hold Andy MacPhail responsible for the past. I do expect him to take steps to correct it in the future. He must figure out why so many injuries to our pitching staff at the end of the year.
As for Dave Trembley he is part of the problem. His handling of the pitching staff at times is atrocious. That's scary. Why? Because that may be the most important thing that a manager does. I believe he shows dramatic improvement in that area next year or it will be his last.
It's sad. Notice how little talk there has been here recently about signing Mark Texiera. Will Brian Roberts want to return? Will Nick Markakis sign long-term? Back on August 17th the answers to those questions were likely yes.
In 2009 the most important part of the O's season wll once again be August and September.
Thanks. Still, very odd. Glavine won 300 at 43, I think. I think Mussina could easily do it if he wanted to. He can be with his family for the rest of his life.
Roch,
Great stuff, as always! Thanks for bringing us Jim's opinion. I can't say that I disagree with him on this.
Now - which cap is he wearing when he's inducted?
You'd think the FO would be aware of the fact their stadium is part of the teams woes. Palmer has advocated the Oriole pitchers pitch to contact but that doesn't seem to be a prudent strategy given the hitter friendly confines of the "Yard". Seems some renovations would be in order. The O's have the muscle to survive in a little bigger park, look at the moon shots Scott, Huff, and Markakis have launched. Of course you would be taking away HRs from B-Rob, Millar, any current O's SS, and the 8 and 9 hitters from other teams! Just some food for thought.
Did Palmer give any indication as to why Mussina would decide to call it quits after this season? It just seems very odd.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically, wants to be with family, knows 300 wins too far away for someone his age. - Roch
Roch: Coming back where? Baltimore? Or re-signing with NY?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coming back to baseball. - Roch
If Trembley thinks that Liz wasn't using his fastball enough, why didn't he or Kranitz go out to the mound and order/demand that Liz stick to the fastball?? Trembley has complained about this before on at least one other occassion with one pitcher or another. He's the boss - why doesn't he act like it?
Great info on Mussina, Roch! Coming from Palmer, that's a strong endorsement. His best point is pitching in the steroid era. Does not surprise me that this will be his last year. Major front page article in USA Today a few weeks ago said as much. You have to respect the fact that he could prolong his career and easily reach 300 wins,thus assuring HOF, but seems to be leaning towards retiring to be with his family. The fact that he's in position to win 20 games for the first time while playing for a weak Yankees team is also impressive.
It's obvious that I never have understood the resentment towards Mussina. Maybe some here will hate Mark Texiera next year when he signs with Yankees, Red Sox, or Angels.
I have to agree with "Cakes", this is such a sad chapter in our history too. I would like to have the honor of seeing Mike him take the podium in person someday in Cooperstown as he is so well spoken to boot, but it's bad enough sharing the park with those creeps (Yankee fans), I won't share that field with them.
Can Andy MacPhail start the off-season early? Can he start releasing lazy, old, and ineffective players now? Can he start doing the other objectives like signing Roberts and Markakis to extensions and so on?
Also... why do we always have to sign players to BIG BIG extensions like 10 years at 200 million? I thought the point was to give them a paycheck but at the same time save a bit of money for other players and the organization itself?
Look at the Angels or Rays or whoever, their payrolls aren't so astronomical like the Yankees or Red Sox are. We can easily give C.C. or Sheets or whoever is a free agent some big bucks but we don't need to go overboard with the deal.
Please, please no hype next spring. It's getting old, much too old. Shame on who ever put this team together. Don't blame Pete A. The warehouse needs to be fumeagated. Trade Nick, Roberts, Wieters and the new #1 pick if that's what it takes. This team is disgusting to watch. We really need this storm to stay here till Monday. 3 rain outs would be perfect.